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[Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

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L_V
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#21 Post by L_V »

stevepusser wrote:Somehow I trust myself enough
At least one person trusts you: yourself. Good start, but far to be enough.
It is even not only a question of trust, but also reliability: do you commit to maintain your packets ? Or is it just a shot for fun for your personal use ?

One could wonder: why don't you ask Debian to become a maintainer for some packages, and accept the Debian rules ?
Who all over the planet can imagine that Mr X has dropped a very specific Debian package Y on a unknown server Z ? => nobody.

The right place for Ubuntu Personal packages is Lanchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu , where packagers have accepted a Code of Conduct .
And your Ubuntu packages should be there, and nowhere else.

By deduction, I would say that Debian Personal packages should be there: https://launchpad.net/debian/ and not lost on totally unpredictable and random servers.
=> List of Debian PPA developers , created on 2005-11-13.

Don't know what is the status of PPA for Debian, but communication should come: Debian Could Get PPA Support
+ more info on PPA: Create a Debian Package From PPA

In summary, it's quite amazing and inconsistent to find someone on this thread reminding the Don't Break Debian rule, but at the same time tries to confusely explain that he has droped himself a Debian package on a fuzzy server, and without any basic rules or minimum code of conduct.
These Debian personal packages should be at least managed as seriously as Ubuntu PPA.
If not, it leaves the door open to anything not obviously recommended, to not say, not recommended at all, and even in total contradiction with Debian rules.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#22 Post by stevepusser »

There is no support for Debian in Launchpad PPAs, and Debian PPAs also appear to be dead. Also, please explain how I can use the Ubuntu PPA system without installing Ubuntu, which I don't want to do. If there were Debian PPAs, that would be great, and I would use them, since the OBS has some limitations and quirks that I have to work around. But there ain't no such thang.

How well do you know any PPA maintainer? Yet lots of users add them based on nothing but instructions from some random blog or forum post. Even Debian users try and then wonder why the program doesn't work. At least I try and build up trust on a forum before I recommend my own repos on it, and I think I have a damn fine reputation here by now. We don't have any thanks or "like" capability here, though, which would be helpful (and provide endless entertainment).

Just because a PPA user agrees to a code of conduct means nothing as to the package quality. I've seen plenty of crappily packaged programs on there. And I agreed to a similar code of conduct when signing up for the OBS. The Launchpad one isn't magic--both Launchpad and the OBS have the same enforcement if you break the policy...they just drop you. There's no Ubuntu police watching you to make sure you aren't an evil haxxor, and they can't throw you in Linux prison.

As to continued support, yes, I could drop dead tomorrow and my repos would languish...just like lots of packages get orphaned and dropped from the repo in Debian, or never added because of no maintainer. Just like PPAs, too. I try and get others interesting in packaging, but get very few takers--some are more interested in sniping from the sidelines. Pew, pew, pew!
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#23 Post by GarryRicketson »

I smell troll :
Post by L_V » 2017-10-21 04:21
stevepusser wrote:
Somehow I trust myself enough
At least one person trusts you: yourself. Good start, but far to be enough.
I have "known" stevepusser now for about 3 years, maybe not personally , but
here, and at the MX forum, also have used some of the packages he has made,
and they all have been good on Debian, I trust him, and hope nothing like this happens, any time soon,
stevepusser>> As to continued support, yes, I could drop dead tomorrow and my repos would languish..
It is still true people should read the "don't break Debian", and take it into
consideration, on anything they use that comes from other sources.
Actually there are quite a few other Debian users and MX users, that do trust Steve as well, just look through the countless times Steve has taken the time to help them, and compile a program/package just for them, but also takes the time and trouble to keep his work available, so others can use it, if they choose to.
If you don't trust him, then get off you lazy--- and do your own reasearch, and compiles to program you need, it is open source, and the code is there, all you have to do is compile and package it for your system

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#24 Post by L_V »

stevepusser wrote:how I can use the Ubuntu PPA system without installing Ubuntu, which I don't want to do.
Who requested you to build packages for Ubuntu that you don't need, and you can even not test ??? Is this logical ? Don't you have the impression to waste your time ?
If someone needs a package for ubuntu, they will know how to make it, and where to place it to have a chance that users find it => PPA.
Absolutely no chance an ubuntu user will use your files.
I even frankly suppose ubuntu users do not need Icecat at all, or simply use the icecat.tar.bz2 package.

More generally, you make packages for who, considering nobody knows they exist ? (or may be 5 people on this forum ?)

Did you ask Debian team before to know if they need or want Icecat in their repository (or backport) ?

For information, I have compared the control file of icecat_52.3.0-gnu1+7.0trisquel3_amd64.deb form Trisquel, with your icecat_52.3.0-gnu1~obs_amd64.deb .
What is the difference ? Nothing but this:
-----------------
http://archive.trisquel.info/trisquel/p ... /i/icecat/
Package: icecat
Version: 52.3.0-gnu1+7.0trisquel3
Architecture: amd64
Maintainer: Ruben Rodriguez <ruben @ gnu.org>
Installed-Size: 113530
Depends: lsb-release, libasound2 (>= 1.0.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.17), libcairo-gobject2 (>= 1.10.0), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.9.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.30.0), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.4), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.14), libnspr4 (>= 2:4.12), libnss3 (>= 2:3.28), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.8 ), libstdc++6 (>= 4.6), libx11-6, libx11-xcb1, libxcb-shm0, libxcb1, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1), libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1), libxext6, libxfixes3, libxrender1, libxt6
Recommends: libcanberra0, libdbusmenu-glib4, libdbusmenu-gtk4[/code]
-----------------
https://build.opensuse.org/package/bina ... Debian_9.0
Package: icecat
Version: 52.3.0-gnu1~obs
Architecture: amd64
Bugs: mailto: <stevep@mxlinux.org>
Maintainer: Steven Pusser <stevep @ mxlinux.org>
Installed-Size: 112516
Depends: lsb-release, libasound2 (>= 1.0.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.17), libcairo-gobject2 (>= 1.10.0), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.9.14), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.11), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.30.0), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.4), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.14), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangoft2-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.8 ), libstdc++6 (>= 5.2), libx11-6, libx11-xcb1, libxcb-shm0, libxcb1, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1), libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1), libxext6, libxfixes3, libxrender1, libxt6
Recommends: libcanberra0, libdbusmenu-glib4, libdbusmenu-gtk4
-----------------

I do not see at all the so "Debian" specificity of your build.

Well, I think you have enough from me to understand my perception of packages dropped out of control in the nature, and made by people unidentified by Debian.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#25 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

L_V wrote:Don't you have the impression to waste your time ?
Just for the record: enabling the Ubuntu repositories in the OBS is simply a matter of clicking a tick box, it takes a matter of seconds.
you make packages for who, considering nobody knows they exist ? (or may be 5 people on this forum ?)
I think quite a few users benefit from Steve's packages and he even hosts some for members of the BunsenLabs community and we are all very grateful :)

Also, his packages are supported — if anybody has any problems with them then they can be dealt with.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#26 Post by stevepusser »

Those control files are automatically generated by the dpkg-shlipdeps process of the Debian package build process. If a program needs only minimum versions of certain libraries, it's no wonder that they come out with the same minimum versions...though you don't say which version of mine you sampled, or what version of Ubuntu trisquel used.

Hey, my first venture onto the OBS was to help Ubuntu Pale Moon users, since a PPA had been abandoned (yes, a PPA, believe it or not, how could anyone leave this holy task). I and several others had requested that existing PPAs take it on, such as the webupd8 one, and got nothing in reply from them. So I actually got up offa that thing and learned how to use the OBS for various distros, and create a universal source package for PM that takes into account the various quirks of the OBS and how to use the gcc-4.8 or 4.9 that the PM developers require I use for compilation, when it's not the default in later distros, or even exists in Stretch.

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11466

I guess all these users don't use my Ubuntu builds, didn't ask for them, and aren't thanking me? I'd be glad for you to take over Pale Moon from me and put it in a PPA; it's a lot of work and I've done all the hard work already for you. Put up, or shut up and go away, please.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#27 Post by HuangLao »

L_V wrote:
stevepusser wrote:Somehow I trust myself enough

The right place for Ubuntu Personal packages is Lanchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu , where packagers have accepted a Code of Conduct .
And your Ubuntu packages should be there, and nowhere else.
WOW, this is just WOW...Have you never heard of the openSUSE OBS? It is the largest repo of packages on the planet, builds for just about every distro.... And just because you have not heard of Steve before (not sure how if you spend any time at all on this forum), does not mean others do not know him. Hey, we do not know you, perhaps we should not trust you...How do we know you are not hiding a virus in your font.....

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#28 Post by HuangLao »

L_V wrote:[
Well, I think you have enough from me to understand my perception of packages dropped out of control in the nature, and made by people unidentified by Debian.
Quick thought, do you know Ruben personally? How is it that you trust his package(s)?

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#29 Post by L_V »

HuangLao wrote:do you know Ruben personally ?
Not personally, but if you want to know more, he is member of Trisquel-GNU-Linux , and you can track his activity here , Trisquel being recommended by the FSF

Your question is then clearly not relevant for people identified and belonging to well known distributions having their own internal rules.
Debian makes a very clear boundary between his own software, and the outside world, which is good.
The problem is that there is nor real guidance or recommendation to help people who would like to contribute to Debian.

case 1: personal package for personal use, or very restricted confidential community (a group of friends etc).
=> no real problem, no rule to fulfill, and nobody cares.

case 2: pieces of software which could benefit to all Debian users
=> This one is more difficult, because no rules communicated by now.
Some packagers will use Debian PPA launchpad, others "OpenSuse" server, and others servers X, Y, Z etc...
Then impossible to have an overview of external Debian packages, which would facilitate tracking of redundancies, and the most important, the possibility to immediately find on a unique data base which Debian package is available or not.
This should be seriously coordinated.

If you look today for a Debian Icecat package, you will easily find the one of Trisquel, and only this one.
Problem: Trisquel has been based on Debian in the past, and now on Ubuntu (although not a problem for a mozilla fork deb packages downloaded from their site as we have seen previously).

May be 10 Debian Icecat packages are already available on different servers, but nobody knows.

Debian is thinking about Debian PPA since 2015.
Discussions might be difficult to come to conclusion to decide if Debian packages should only come from Debian, and if not, how to organize and help packagers to avoid loosing their time, either by creating X redundancies, or simply because their work will stay totally unknown and unused, hidden on an unknown server somewhere around the planet.

This should be clarified in the coming months.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#30 Post by HuangLao »

L_V,

I asked you "do you know Ruben"? I did not ask can you tell me who Ruben is. I am aware of Ruben and his work on Trisquel along with his brother and the other people involved at Trisquel. I have helped them in the past with bug squashing, forum assistance etc.... I am fully aware of FSF, especially given that I've been using *nix for quite a few decades. Your long post still did not answer the simple questions I or others posited. Instead you left a diatribe an L_V packaging manifesto. Debian does not prevent one from using third party packages, it merely states that doing so you will be left to clean up any mess you made on your own. Steve, is in this forum several times per day helping not only with his packages, but also with Debian in general, he has been involved with a Debian based distro for many years, a distro that at one time was a top rated distro on distrowatch.

It is so much more simple then you are making it. If you believe that only packages from Debian repos should be used, then only use those packages. If others on here would like to support third party repos and install packages from those third party repos, then so be it. Its not like people are forcing you to install those third party packages. There is no secret script during installation that adds a non debian repo during the debian install.

and PS: you should glance over the Trisquel forum sometime, the future of that distro is uncertain to say the least. Even Ruben acknowledged that he can only spend one day per week on the distro, and many times not even one day. Many have left Trisquel for Debian, Parabola, Uruk, GuixSD and others....

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#31 Post by stevepusser »

Where is this "Debian PPA Launchpad" to be found so I can use it?
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#32 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

deadbang

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#33 Post by stevepusser »

Doesn't look like it's working:
Architectures and builds for Stretch

Stretch has no architectures managed in Launchpad.
If it was working, why don't we see one single PPA that also supports Debian as well as Ubuntu, like we can in the OBS?
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#34 Post by debiman »

stevepusser wrote:If it was working, why don't we see one single PPA that also supports Debian as well as Ubuntu, like we can in the OBS?
maybe someone just has to start using it?

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#35 Post by L_V »

It is clear that if "nobody" is using Debian launchpad , the first key question is to clarify why.

Work in progress. Even better said by Debian project leader than by myself concerning coordination of external contributions.
October 16, 2017
Debian Project Leader Chris Lamb on Coordinating a Worldwide Team of Contributors Plus the Perks to Using the Free, Open Operating System

“When you install something, you’re compiling this source code and trusting that someone has been through it with a fine-tooth comb, not modified it, and distributed it in a sane and safe way,” Chris said.
There’s this chain of trust that’s missing.

Debian should definitively provide clear guidelines to contributors, and facilitate easy overview of what is available "outside", and track what to improve.
Guidelines could be:
* Develop, promote and publish your software.
* Encourage contributions to your project.
* Improve collaboration with other projects and developers.
* Build communities using teams and mailing lists.
* avoid as much a possible wasted time with redundancies
* etc.

A Debian code of conduct should also have to be accepted by contributors.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#36 Post by debiman »

there's some interesting stuff.
at first glance it seems to me that this chris lamb would like to make it easier to integrate new packages into debian with its stable policy, yet is concerned of the dangers and pollution something like ppa would be adding.
it seems that https://reproducible-builds.org/ is an attempt at finding a solution for these seemingly opposing approaches.

there is no mention of "code of conduct" anywhere and i wish you'd stop mentioning it; it's one of the biggest pretentious pieces of BS that ever came out of canonicals arse.
its main purpose is to make people feel good about working for free for a corporation, and create an image of a loving community to cover up the not-so rosy facts.
it just doesn't work that way.
debian did well without one for over 2 decades - and see what ubuntu was made from, and continues to draw from!

the rest of your "manifesto", i'm sorry to say, comes over as arrogant and misinformed.
please look around and research what works in debian, and how, and think twice before offering advice.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#37 Post by L_V »

@debiman
You should not be so focused on terminology which does not fit you personally.
Current target is to improve "the global chain of trust" with Debian contributors.
To achieve this, a set of basic rules or guidelines or code of conduct, call it as you want, needs to be communicated and shared with contributors.
I know you won't accept the word "rule", but translate it as you want.
Debian is perfect. Let's make it better.

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

#38 Post by debiman »

L_V wrote:@debiman
You should not be so focused on terminology which does not fit you personally.
Current target is to improve "the global chain of trust" with Debian contributors.
To achieve this, a set of basic rules or guidelines or code of conduct, call it as you want, needs to be communicated and shared with contributors.
I know you won't accept the word "rule", but translate it as you want.
Debian is perfect. Let's make it better.
erm.
ubuntu's "code of conduct" is an existing piece of writing, no matter what terminology i personally use.
i was refering to the content of that, as did you a few posts up:
L_V wrote:The right place for Ubuntu Personal packages is Lanchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu , where packagers have accepted a Code of Conduct .
[ and onwards with the explanation why debian needs something like that ]
like i said, i think the only purpose of that is to "make people feel good about working for free for a corporation, and create an image of a loving community to cover up the not-so rosy facts".

simply including some lines about how good we all are and how we all want to work for the greater good is not enough to create a "chain of trust" (whatever that may be).
and if you didn't actually mean ubuntu's code of conduct, stop refering to it.
whatever.

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