[Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-10-13 21:37

by stevepusser »
If you had searched these forums like I suggested, the second result is a thread that has the instructions to add a Debian Icecat repo maintained on the openSUSE Build Service by yrs truly. The OBS will be having a planned outage this weekend....seems that they are down right now, too.



You mean this ? https://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home%3Astevenpusser%3AIceCat&package=icecat

I saw it yesterday, looks like a good solution. Unfortunately, yes the site is
" currently down for maintenance. ", but I know from my own experience it is reliable and will be back up in a couple of days , if not sooner.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-13 21:50

GarryRicketson wrote:
by stevepusser »
If you had searched these forums like I suggested, the second result is a thread that has the instructions to add a Debian Icecat repo maintained on the openSUSE Build Service by yrs truly. The OBS will be having a planned outage this weekend....seems that they are down right now, too.



You mean this ? https://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home%3Astevenpusser%3AIceCat&package=icecat

I saw it yesterday, looks like a good solution. Unfortunately, yes the site is
" currently down for maintenance. ", but I know from my own experience it is reliable and will be back up in a couple of days , if not sooner.


Awww, you gave out the link. I'm trying to "teach a man to fish" with these hints. I went to all the trouble of getting IceCat to build in that repo, which really wasn't simple, so I'd prefer the OP at least make some minimal effort to find it, instead of expecting me to carry him the rest of the way. :D
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-10-13 23:43

Oops, well sorry about that, I noticed it last night when I was doing some
searches on this, I did kind of wonder why you had not just posted a link to
it, now I understand.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby L_V » 2017-10-20 17:35

Well, you are right, you should never give external repositories in a sub-section of "Beginners questions". My bad, I did not notice it.
However risk is very limited because Icecat deb package from OpenSuse repo has been disabled, as you can see.

Image

A Debian system should be kept as clean as possible, and these commands should help for those who already added external repositories:
Code: Select all
## as root / sudo ##
sed -i '/debian/!d' /etc/apt/sources.list
rm /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*
apt-get update

Now, to be said off the record only, risks are very limited for Mozilla forks, because serious packagers try to make deb's file the most compatible as possible for so called "Debian compatible distro".

Look at Vivaldi example: http://repo.vivaldi.com/stable/deb/pool/main/
A vivaldi deb file will even automatically add the vivaldi site to sources.list: I don't like that so much without any warning, but it is a fact, and it works both for Debian, Ubuntu and others compatible.
There are a lot of example like this.
Generally speaking, Debian users are supposed to know how to manage an apt system, and again, the risk is minor for a Mozilla fork which is far to be a core system component.

@stevepusser
If you are so scared with these Debian "compatible" packages, you can download a "compatible" deb file and try this as root:
Code: Select all
dpkg -i --simulate my_scary_package.deb

and analyze the output. It will give you a risk estimation.

... of course you can make specific packages for your Ubuntu and Debian systems, if you have a lot of free time.
However, the question is: where to put your files ?
You can be sure that nobody would have the crazy idea to look for a "pure" and trusted Debian package on a OpenSuse server (may be few people visiting this forum, and that's all).

Where should be the packages ?
1 - Ubuntu: packages not avalaible in Ubuntu repositories are proposed in "PPA" (Personal Package Archives)
=> What are PPAs and how do I use them?

2 - Debian packages => only one place: Debian repositories, and nowhere else => Dont Break Debian

Now, if Icecat is not in the Debian repositories, it is may be simply because Debian is looking for manpower !!
Even Thunderbird should currently be release 52.4, but still 52.3 in SID => clear manpower problem.

=> Call for volunteers for a new Debian support project
=> Debian Integrated Support System

Good contribution.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-20 21:09

Somehow I trust myself enough to recommend a repository that I maintain myself. I'm funny that way. As well for all the packages I do for MX Linux and on the OBS, like the Pale Moon browser, or the new backports one for the Liquorix kernel for various distreleases, since the regular 4.13 version's headers now need gcc-7, which is not in Stretch.

If you can point to some free and hopefully easy to use build and hosting system for various distros that's as good as the OBS, I am willing to test it. The main Debian repo is not that.

If you follow that link, you see that there is indeed an "icecat" package for Stretch in my repo. If the package does not get built and put into the repo, the instructions for the repo don't get generated. Due to some technical issues, I had to put the source in a separate package for distros that don't have hardening-wrapper in the repos any longer, but the "icecat" package still gets built: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show ... etch-zesty
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby L_V » 2017-10-21 10:21

stevepusser wrote:Somehow I trust myself enough

At least one person trusts you: yourself. Good start, but far to be enough.
It is even not only a question of trust, but also reliability: do you commit to maintain your packets ? Or is it just a shot for fun for your personal use ?

One could wonder: why don't you ask Debian to become a maintainer for some packages, and accept the Debian rules ?
Who all over the planet can imagine that Mr X has dropped a very specific Debian package Y on a unknown server Z ? => nobody.

The right place for Ubuntu Personal packages is Lanchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu , where packagers have accepted a Code of Conduct .
And your Ubuntu packages should be there, and nowhere else.

By deduction, I would say that Debian Personal packages should be there: https://launchpad.net/debian/ and not lost on totally unpredictable and random servers.
=> List of Debian PPA developers , created on 2005-11-13.

Don't know what is the status of PPA for Debian, but communication should come: Debian Could Get PPA Support
+ more info on PPA: Create a Debian Package From PPA

In summary, it's quite amazing and inconsistent to find someone on this thread reminding the Don't Break Debian rule, but at the same time tries to confusely explain that he has droped himself a Debian package on a fuzzy server, and without any basic rules or minimum code of conduct.
These Debian personal packages should be at least managed as seriously as Ubuntu PPA.
If not, it leaves the door open to anything not obviously recommended, to not say, not recommended at all, and even in total contradiction with Debian rules.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-21 19:13

There is no support for Debian in Launchpad PPAs, and Debian PPAs also appear to be dead. Also, please explain how I can use the Ubuntu PPA system without installing Ubuntu, which I don't want to do. If there were Debian PPAs, that would be great, and I would use them, since the OBS has some limitations and quirks that I have to work around. But there ain't no such thang.

How well do you know any PPA maintainer? Yet lots of users add them based on nothing but instructions from some random blog or forum post. Even Debian users try and then wonder why the program doesn't work. At least I try and build up trust on a forum before I recommend my own repos on it, and I think I have a damn fine reputation here by now. We don't have any thanks or "like" capability here, though, which would be helpful (and provide endless entertainment).

Just because a PPA user agrees to a code of conduct means nothing as to the package quality. I've seen plenty of crappily packaged programs on there. And I agreed to a similar code of conduct when signing up for the OBS. The Launchpad one isn't magic--both Launchpad and the OBS have the same enforcement if you break the policy...they just drop you. There's no Ubuntu police watching you to make sure you aren't an evil haxxor, and they can't throw you in Linux prison.

As to continued support, yes, I could drop dead tomorrow and my repos would languish...just like lots of packages get orphaned and dropped from the repo in Debian, or never added because of no maintainer. Just like PPAs, too. I try and get others interesting in packaging, but get very few takers--some are more interested in sniping from the sidelines. Pew, pew, pew!
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-10-21 20:37

I smell troll :
Post by L_V » 2017-10-21 04:21
stevepusser wrote:
Somehow I trust myself enough

At least one person trusts you: yourself. Good start, but far to be enough.

I have "known" stevepusser now for about 3 years, maybe not personally , but
here, and at the MX forum, also have used some of the packages he has made,
and they all have been good on Debian, I trust him, and hope nothing like this happens, any time soon,
stevepusser>> As to continued support, yes, I could drop dead tomorrow and my repos would languish..


It is still true people should read the "don't break Debian", and take it into
consideration, on anything they use that comes from other sources.
Actually there are quite a few other Debian users and MX users, that do trust Steve as well, just look through the countless times Steve has taken the time to help them, and compile a program/package just for them, but also takes the time and trouble to keep his work available, so others can use it, if they choose to.
If you don't trust him, then get off you lazy--- and do your own reasearch, and compiles to program you need, it is open source, and the code is there, all you have to do is compile and package it for your system
"What we expect you have already Done"

Before doing anything, read the Debian documentation:
Debian Documentation
How to ask the smart way
Debian Foro Español
======================
For the Birds
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby L_V » 2017-10-21 20:53

stevepusser wrote:how I can use the Ubuntu PPA system without installing Ubuntu, which I don't want to do.
Who requested you to build packages for Ubuntu that you don't need, and you can even not test ??? Is this logical ? Don't you have the impression to waste your time ?
If someone needs a package for ubuntu, they will know how to make it, and where to place it to have a chance that users find it => PPA.
Absolutely no chance an ubuntu user will use your files.
I even frankly suppose ubuntu users do not need Icecat at all, or simply use the icecat.tar.bz2 package.

More generally, you make packages for who, considering nobody knows they exist ? (or may be 5 people on this forum ?)

Did you ask Debian team before to know if they need or want Icecat in their repository (or backport) ?

For information, I have compared the control file of icecat_52.3.0-gnu1+7.0trisquel3_amd64.deb form Trisquel, with your icecat_52.3.0-gnu1~obs_amd64.deb .
What is the difference ? Nothing but this:
-----------------
http://archive.trisquel.info/trisquel/p ... /i/icecat/
Package: icecat
Version: 52.3.0-gnu1+7.0trisquel3
Architecture: amd64
Maintainer: Ruben Rodriguez <ruben @ gnu.org>
Installed-Size: 113530
Depends: lsb-release, libasound2 (>= 1.0.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.17), libcairo-gobject2 (>= 1.10.0), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.9.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.30.0), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.4), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.14), libnspr4 (>= 2:4.12), libnss3 (>= 2:3.28), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.8 ), libstdc++6 (>= 4.6), libx11-6, libx11-xcb1, libxcb-shm0, libxcb1, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1), libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1), libxext6, libxfixes3, libxrender1, libxt6
Recommends: libcanberra0, libdbusmenu-glib4, libdbusmenu-gtk4[/code]
-----------------
https://build.opensuse.org/package/bina ... Debian_9.0
Package: icecat
Version: 52.3.0-gnu1~obs
Architecture: amd64
Bugs: mailto: <stevep@mxlinux.org>
Maintainer: Steven Pusser <stevep @ mxlinux.org>
Installed-Size: 112516
Depends: lsb-release, libasound2 (>= 1.0.16), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libc6 (>= 2.17), libcairo-gobject2 (>= 1.10.0), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.0), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.9.14), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.78), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.11), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.30.0), libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.4), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.14), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangoft2-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libstartup-notification0 (>= 0.8 ), libstdc++6 (>= 5.2), libx11-6, libx11-xcb1, libxcb-shm0, libxcb1, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1), libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1), libxext6, libxfixes3, libxrender1, libxt6
Recommends: libcanberra0, libdbusmenu-glib4, libdbusmenu-gtk4
-----------------

I do not see at all the so "Debian" specificity of your build.

Well, I think you have enough from me to understand my perception of packages dropped out of control in the nature, and made by people unidentified by Debian.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-10-21 21:11

L_V wrote:Don't you have the impression to waste your time ?

Just for the record: enabling the Ubuntu repositories in the OBS is simply a matter of clicking a tick box, it takes a matter of seconds.

you make packages for who, considering nobody knows they exist ? (or may be 5 people on this forum ?)

I think quite a few users benefit from Steve's packages and he even hosts some for members of the BunsenLabs community and we are all very grateful :)

Also, his packages are supported — if anybody has any problems with them then they can be dealt with.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-21 22:45

Those control files are automatically generated by the dpkg-shlipdeps process of the Debian package build process. If a program needs only minimum versions of certain libraries, it's no wonder that they come out with the same minimum versions...though you don't say which version of mine you sampled, or what version of Ubuntu trisquel used.

Hey, my first venture onto the OBS was to help Ubuntu Pale Moon users, since a PPA had been abandoned (yes, a PPA, believe it or not, how could anyone leave this holy task). I and several others had requested that existing PPAs take it on, such as the webupd8 one, and got nothing in reply from them. So I actually got up offa that thing and learned how to use the OBS for various distros, and create a universal source package for PM that takes into account the various quirks of the OBS and how to use the gcc-4.8 or 4.9 that the PM developers require I use for compilation, when it's not the default in later distros, or even exists in Stretch.

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11466

I guess all these users don't use my Ubuntu builds, didn't ask for them, and aren't thanking me? I'd be glad for you to take over Pale Moon from me and put it in a PPA; it's a lot of work and I've done all the hard work already for you. Put up, or shut up and go away, please.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby HuangLao » 2017-10-22 01:56

L_V wrote:
stevepusser wrote:Somehow I trust myself enough



The right place for Ubuntu Personal packages is Lanchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu , where packagers have accepted a Code of Conduct .
And your Ubuntu packages should be there, and nowhere else.


WOW, this is just WOW...Have you never heard of the openSUSE OBS? It is the largest repo of packages on the planet, builds for just about every distro.... And just because you have not heard of Steve before (not sure how if you spend any time at all on this forum), does not mean others do not know him. Hey, we do not know you, perhaps we should not trust you...How do we know you are not hiding a virus in your font.....
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby HuangLao » 2017-10-22 02:00

L_V wrote:[
Well, I think you have enough from me to understand my perception of packages dropped out of control in the nature, and made by people unidentified by Debian.


Quick thought, do you know Ruben personally? How is it that you trust his package(s)?
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby L_V » 2017-10-22 16:45

HuangLao wrote:do you know Ruben personally ?

Not personally, but if you want to know more, he is member of Trisquel-GNU-Linux , and you can track his activity here , Trisquel being recommended by the FSF

Your question is then clearly not relevant for people identified and belonging to well known distributions having their own internal rules.
Debian makes a very clear boundary between his own software, and the outside world, which is good.
The problem is that there is nor real guidance or recommendation to help people who would like to contribute to Debian.

case 1: personal package for personal use, or very restricted confidential community (a group of friends etc).
=> no real problem, no rule to fulfill, and nobody cares.

case 2: pieces of software which could benefit to all Debian users
=> This one is more difficult, because no rules communicated by now.
Some packagers will use Debian PPA launchpad, others "OpenSuse" server, and others servers X, Y, Z etc...
Then impossible to have an overview of external Debian packages, which would facilitate tracking of redundancies, and the most important, the possibility to immediately find on a unique data base which Debian package is available or not.
This should be seriously coordinated.

If you look today for a Debian Icecat package, you will easily find the one of Trisquel, and only this one.
Problem: Trisquel has been based on Debian in the past, and now on Ubuntu (although not a problem for a mozilla fork deb packages downloaded from their site as we have seen previously).

May be 10 Debian Icecat packages are already available on different servers, but nobody knows.

Debian is thinking about Debian PPA since 2015.
Discussions might be difficult to come to conclusion to decide if Debian packages should only come from Debian, and if not, how to organize and help packagers to avoid loosing their time, either by creating X redundancies, or simply because their work will stay totally unknown and unused, hidden on an unknown server somewhere around the planet.

This should be clarified in the coming months.
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Re: [Solved] Why isn't Gnuzilla in Debian repositories

Postby HuangLao » 2017-10-22 18:32

L_V,

I asked you "do you know Ruben"? I did not ask can you tell me who Ruben is. I am aware of Ruben and his work on Trisquel along with his brother and the other people involved at Trisquel. I have helped them in the past with bug squashing, forum assistance etc.... I am fully aware of FSF, especially given that I've been using *nix for quite a few decades. Your long post still did not answer the simple questions I or others posited. Instead you left a diatribe an L_V packaging manifesto. Debian does not prevent one from using third party packages, it merely states that doing so you will be left to clean up any mess you made on your own. Steve, is in this forum several times per day helping not only with his packages, but also with Debian in general, he has been involved with a Debian based distro for many years, a distro that at one time was a top rated distro on distrowatch.

It is so much more simple then you are making it. If you believe that only packages from Debian repos should be used, then only use those packages. If others on here would like to support third party repos and install packages from those third party repos, then so be it. Its not like people are forcing you to install those third party packages. There is no secret script during installation that adds a non debian repo during the debian install.

and PS: you should glance over the Trisquel forum sometime, the future of that distro is uncertain to say the least. Even Ruben acknowledged that he can only spend one day per week on the distro, and many times not even one day. Many have left Trisquel for Debian, Parabola, Uruk, GuixSD and others....
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