debian packages

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debian packages

Postby k_money_2317 » 2017-10-05 12:51

I just installed the package vim-pathogen to get pathogen. It didn't work and it puts it in /var/lib/vim/addons, where normally, pathogen is supposed to go in ~/.vim/autoload, and you're supposed to make a ~/.vim/bundle direcotory and a bunch of stuff to your .vimrc.

WHY ARE DEBIAN PACKAGES SO OFTEN LIKE THIS?

They don't seem to conform to the norm and often dont integrate well with the documentation for the software which the package installs. Is there something i'm missing? It looks like other debian users did not bother with the pathogen package either.

Please help me understand the package system or if there are some things I need to know about.
Last edited by k_money_2317 on 2017-10-05 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: debian packages

Postby k_money_2317 » 2017-10-05 12:58

I'm trying to follow this guideline from "Don't Break Debian":

One of the primary advantages of Debian is its central repository with thousands of software packages. If you're coming to Debian from another operating system, you might be used to installing software that you find on random websites. On Debian installing software from random websites is a bad habit. It's always better to use software from the official Debian repositories if at all possible. The packages in the Debian repositories are known to work well and install properly. Only using software from the Debian repositories is also much safer than installing from random websites which could bundle malware and other security risks.


It's HARD to follow this strictly...
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Re: debian packages

Postby bigrigdriver » 2017-10-05 13:14

I just installed the package vim-pathogen to get pathogen. It didn't work and it puts it in /var/lib/vim/addons, where normally, pathogen is supposed to go in ~/.vim/autoload, and you're supposed to make a ~/.vim/bundle direcotory and a bunch of stuff to your .vimrc.
Is there something i'm missing?

The files installed in /var/lib are the global files, which affect all users on the system. If you edit those files to set preferences, they will be overwritten the next time the package is updated.
On the other hand, copying files to ~/.vim allows you to edit those files to set your preferences just the way you like them, which overrides the global files defaults. The files in ~/.vim will not be updated when the package is updated. Your preferences are preserved.
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Re: debian packages

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-05 18:03

WHY ARE DEBIAN PACKAGES SO OFTEN LIKE THIS?


WHAT OTHER DISTROS AT ALL INSTALL LIBRARIES INTO THE USER'S HOME DIRECTORY INSTEAD OF IN THE SYSTEM DIRECTORIES?

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Re: debian packages

Postby debiman » 2017-10-06 16:29

k_money_2317,
it is confusing sometimes.
especially web development often relies on a stable base system (debian, centos etc) with brand new web applications on top of it.

i was in a very similar situation very recently, and i hope it can illustrate my point:
i tried to install jekyll - at first from the repos, which resulted in a version that was not compatible with the documentation i was reading, and also it was asking me for my sudo password everytime it wanted to install a plugin (a ruby gem).
after some exploration i realised that in this case i actually want to bypass package management, because ruby has its own, and i don't want it to install everything into system directories, and also because in this case i want the newest ruby stuff versions.
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Re: debian packages

Postby k_money_2317 » 2017-10-06 20:01

OMG THANK YOU GUYS SOO MUCH , THIS WAS HELPFUL AF!! I didn't expect that quick of a response. Please if you could, take a look at my additional questions. I'm looking for advice and guidance on these things.

/var/lib are the global files, which affect all users on the system.


I thought maybe that was true! Can you guys tell me where I can find information in regards to "/var/lib". Do all linux programs pull plugins or related information from "/var/lib". If it is standard, and global, I want to get familiar with it. I agree, it would be better to have somethings, like pathegon, common for all users (including root). That would be more convenient.

The only reason I knew to look in /var/lib/vim/addons is because that is what apt-get printed out after the install. This is in contrast to the the vim manual:

USING A GLOBAL PLUGIN

First read the text in the plugin itself to check for any special conditions.
Then copy the file to your plugin directory:

system plugin directory
Unix ~/.vim/plugin/
PC and OS/2 $HOME/vimfiles/plugin or $VIM/vimfiles/plugin
Amiga s:vimfiles/plugin
Macintosh $VIM:vimfiles:plugin
Mac OS X ~/.vim/plugin/
RISC-OS Choices:vimfiles.plugin

Example for Unix (assuming you didn't have a plugin directory yet):

mkdir ~/.vim
mkdir ~/.vim/plugin
cp /usr/local/share/vim/vim60/macros/justify.vim ~/.vim/plugin



You can see the vim documentation uses ~/.vim/plugin, and does not mention /var/lib anywhere. This consistent with the documentation of all plugin's I see in regards to install instructions.

I would really like to understand my debian system more. Does anyone have like a diagram or dictionary that explains how debian file directories are purposed?

I think this would help me the most. How can I better know when things will be different than the program's manual in Debian?? I feel like there is just some basic knowledge gaps I could resolve that would save me timeIf you want to say RTFM that is fine, but say RTFM, but then also point me to the right page or section of the manual.

I want to learn these things because I really like Debian. It's the strongest distro. in my opinion, maybe not the easiest, but I respect it's quality and consistency. I understand that these things come with trade offs.


i was in a very similar situation very recently, and i hope it can illustrate my point:
i tried to install jekyll - at first from the repos, which resulted in a version that was not compatible with the documentation i was reading, and also it was asking me for my sudo password everytime it wanted to install a plugin (a ruby gem).
after some exploration i realised that in this case i actually want to bypass package management, because ruby has its own, and i don't want it to install everything into system directories, and also because in this case i want the newest ruby stuff versions.


I've also had problems similar to this, where the program i install with sudo apt-get doesn't have proper permissions and I need to go in and perform a usermod. Which is fine, once I've known that. but sometimes I dont know what to do or how to fix. I've even gone in and change permisions in some particual root directory to give access, probably 'cause i did something wrong.

And sometimes I have to just stick with it. My insync softtware is a root user, because it wouldn't work unless I made it root, now im stuck with it, until I get a chance to go figure out what I did wrong.... currently resolved by just setting permsions for the cloud directory every time i make a new sub-folder. I'll have to probably back up and then uninstall at some point and try again.. it'll be a mess....

I wish there were some docs are a website dedicated to "debian for normal users". I've been using debian for almost a year now. the more I understand the more I will be able to help other new users!


Thanks
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Re: debian packages

Postby debiman » 2017-10-07 05:24

tl;dr

don't make a science out of it.

sometimes these things ARE a little foggy.

also, i don't use vim, but i'm sure it has its own dedicated community. though i doubt they appreciate this sort of logorrhea.
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Re: debian packages

Postby Thorny » 2017-10-07 11:51

k_money_2317 wrote:I would really like to understand my debian system more. Does anyone have like a diagram or dictionary that explains how debian file directories are purposed?

Perhaps this might help your understanding:
https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard

Also try the Frontpage of the Debian Wiki for additional topics to help your understanding, the wiki is usually a good place to start when you don't understand something. Maybe you would find things of interest in the package management section.
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Re: debian packages

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-10-07 13:12

k_money_2317 wrote:I would really like to understand my debian system more. Does anyone have like a diagram or dictionary that explains how debian file directories are purposed?

Read hier(7). All of it. :mrgreen:

EDIT: but bear in mind that nobody actually adheres to the FHS in practice.
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Re: debian packages

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-10-07 13:47

by k_money_2317 » Does anyone have like a diagram or dictionary that explains how debian file directories are purposed?


Learning how to do some basic searches, is a great tool for learning;
"diagram or dictionary that explains how debian file directories are purposed?"
One hit, of many:
Linux Directory Structure (File System Structure) Explained with Examples
Even includes a "diagram".


I wish there were some docs are a website dedicated to "debian for normal users"

There are plenty, the problem is you seem to expect others to look for them, for you.
Another example:
by k_money_2317 »Can you guys tell me where I can find information in regards to "/var/lib"

where I can find information in regards to "/var/lib"

One, of many hits: http://www.linfo.org/var.html

Note, there are over 25 other results, but you need to do the search and look at the results your self, I am not going to post them all here.
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Re: debian packages

Postby k_money_2317 » 2017-10-07 15:21

thanks Head_on_a_Stick, debiman and Thorny. Your posts were helpful. I wasn't looking for people to "google things for me". Google hits only give a small fragment of the whole concept, and often contain information that is not useful for debian distros specifically. I was looking for better understanding the core fundamentals debian system from debian users. Thanks again for your help Head_on_a_Stick, debiman and Thorny. I should probably start getting into IRC for help as well.
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Re: debian packages

Postby stevepusser » 2017-10-07 17:47

Debian also has a clearly defined policy as to where a package installs various types of files; if someone discovers that an existing package is not following the policy, a bug needs to be filed against it and the package fixed. One overall rule is that the files be installed for the entire system, not just for a single user.
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Re: debian packages

Postby thunderogg » 2017-10-07 19:59

I use vim quite a lot to write stories because it's so incredibly configurable. I have installed e few plug-ins, including pathogen, taken directly from vim's script site, and then I have made some myself. All of them are installed in the ~.vim directory. When I move from one distro to another I just link over the .vim directory. Never had any problems with any of the plug-ins and I never have to reconfigure anything. It's just there, always working. Therefore I never install any of the plug-ins that Debian or any other distro offers. I have found that that works best for me. :)
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Re: debian packages

Postby Thorny » 2017-10-08 08:20

k_money_2317 wrote: Google hits only give a small fragment of the whole concept, and often contain information that is not useful for debian distros specifically.

When that happens, narrow your search. Include the name Debian, or whichever distro you are interested in as a keyword in your search terms. That can help limit the returns to your area of interest. The "whole concept" is found by sufficient searching and careful discrimination and often a bit of luck.

As you have probably already figured out, asking clarification questions about a topic that you have clearly researched will get you the best answers.
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