Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

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Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-06-29 04:45

By default latest "stable" Debian 9 does not have any means of multilingual support.

It is installed only in pre-selected language with only one simplest direct keyboard input.
There are some manuals how to add more locales using console (which nulifies all the efforts of GUI building by itself), and even foreign keyboard layout can be added with minor problems in layout switching.

But there are languages, like Chinese and Japanese requiring special input method (IME). And there is nothing in Debian, offering smooth integration of Asian input along with european language inputs.

I.e. there are many system manuals for iBUS and fcitx. There are some manuals on installing iBus, and no working manual for installing fcitx on Debian. At least I could not get any success installing fcitx on Gnome.
Worse.

Installing iBus on KDE results in total input damage. Input becomes near disabled, you have to type "ddddddeeeeeebbbbiiiiiaaaannnn" in order to get "debian".
In Gnome iBus (lets use a manual like this http://okomestudio.net/biboroku/?p=2472) have almost no effect on input. Almost means - you loose your secondary keyboard layout, while the indicator is still working.

I just have no idea how to install English, Georgian, Russian, Japanese, and Chinese simultaneously with one switch hot-key in Debian.

It is very simple in Windows. You just install new inputs, and the system decides whenever just change the layout, or activate Japanese IME, etc. You can even have handwriten glyph recognition there.
It is much simpler iOS, just add the input, and push the selector button in your application.

But why not in Debian?
Or is there any step-by step manual for installing all these inputs with one indicator and one hot-key switch?
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby bw123 » 2018-06-29 13:22

I think debian is very committed to being a truly universal os, but some things may not work yet, or may be difficult to implement.

I found a lot of hits in the wiki searching for the word language, have you tried any searches there?

https://wiki.debian.org/FrontPage?actio ... rch=Titles

As for why it does not work like windows, see this.
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-01 07:07

Of course, I am looking for a solution for 4 days already. And did not see any up to date solution for Debian Stretch.
Just nothing works that I found.

And I am not talking about implementation, why can't it be like in Windows. Because it is not Windows!
But there is one common thing between Android, iOS, and Windows - multilingual input there works smoothly with unified setup and unified switching, without any headache.

Why cant't Debian devs just take Android, or iOS design principles as a standard? I started looking at Debian because it is called "universal PC linux". Bu appears, it is not. At least yet, in the year 2018. 25years, should be quite a mature age, isn't it.

Now, coming bac'k to the problem.

I think, I know the core of all troubles.
Some genius has linked IM to the LOCALE.
I had to install current Debian with Japanese UI, and everything was working.
The moment I changed UI to English, Japanese IM stopped working, regardless on what I set in im-config. Probably, that BUG is the reason the smart guys has disabled any possibility to change UI by user in user mode.

So, maybe the question should be changed to: HOW can I disable the relation of IM on LOCALE, and configure all the input methods at once with US, or some EU locale?
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby bw123 » 2018-07-01 09:22

Hale wrote:...
Why cant't Debian devs just take Android, or iOS design principles as a standard?
...


I'm sure that some probably do use those design principles, but a project like debian might not function that same way others do. It's called OPEN-source, development is open, free, not limited and restricted to one standard. People are encouraged to try different things.

Wouldn't limiting the development to one path be a little premature? I don't know the technical details, but in general, I think linux benefits from not adopting limiting standards that control development. see http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathe ... al-bazaar/

I can tell you are having trouble, and that's something devs should know about. Maybe you can find a constructive way to let them know at one of the links below, or maybe even help the project? That's what debian is all about, focusing on becoming a better operating system.

https://www.debian.org/international/
https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/IMEPackagingTeam
good luck.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-01 10:32

Linux guys never listen.
Again. Nobody is asking to restrict implementation to one standard. Develop any standard you like.
Bu use ONE standard for QUALITY inside ONE project(here, Debian).
Why Debian guys can define one visual standard for Gnome, and one (initial) predefined configuration for Language&locales applet... It's quite useless thing, what color it is, from productivity point of view...
...but no open linux team can't define simple "must have" options, and beta-testing procedures? Simple quality requirements.
Quality requirements - it is simply the thing, which makes MS, Apple and Google different. Whenever they offer proprietary, or open products.

I am trying to move to Linux from Win from 90s... Every few years I try new distribution. And all the same. Every "stable release" just does not work out of the box.
Simply, no quality requirements for release packages. Nowhere, not in Slackware, not in Mandrake, Not in Suse, not in RedHat, not in Ubuntu(most efforts done)... Just roll out anything without even trying how it works even in VBox. Even in VirtualBox!!! Debian 9 just does not boot reliably on UEFI machine, without messing with console and root.


Well, the question is open. It is impossible using full multilingual input without removing IM dependency on LOCALES.
Where can it be disabled?
Last edited by Hale on 2018-07-01 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby bw123 » 2018-07-01 10:57

I don't know about linux guys, but I have listened and tried to help the best I can, but you seem a little hostile, so I will go away now, and ignore your future posts, feel free to do the same by adding me to your block list..
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-01 12:55

am I hostile?
You have sent me to void in the second post:
"https://wiki.debian.org/FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=language&titlesearch=Titles"
is it friendly?
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby debiman » 2018-07-01 16:24

Windows guys always expect to get help with everything no matter how they behave.

maybe that's one of the biggest drawbacks of Linux: You are not entitled to get a working product. And if indeed something doesn't work to satisfaction, there's nobody to blame. Just a huge pile of devs, wannabe-devs and more... all of them will say: instead of complaining (why can't linux be like XYZ... on ABC this just works out of the box), show us what you did to try and solve the problem etc. etc.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-03 01:02

>Windows guys always expect to get help with everything no matter how they behave.
How should I behave when some guy sends me to hell in every topic? (searching for nothing in void) That is rude, and unfriendly. That is not helping.
Maybe that guy is experienced, but he behaves like an experienced troll. So why do you expect any friendliness in response?

>maybe that's one of the biggest drawbacks of Linux: You are not entitled to get a working product.
Therefore Linux project defines quality standards for kernel only. And fulfills these standards by 150%.
But what I am downloading is not Linux. I am sownloading Debian distribution from Debian project with it's own standards.
And the Debian motto is "universal Linux for PC".
Now see:
What I am discussing here is the contradiction to this basis principle of Debian: It is totally not universal from multilingual point of view.
This narrow-scoped limitation is hardcoded in Debian UI switching mechanism.

BTW, I found partial workaround.
The env var LC_CTYPE is hardcoded =LANG=GDM_LANG.

That is totally wrong.

The next wrong thing, changing LC_CTYPE=ja_JP.UTF-8 fixes Japanese, but does not fix other languages.
So the multilingual input is still not universal; allowing only one IM, and a few simple 8-bit layouts simultaneously.

I didn't know about this var effect, but any Linux guy could guess it in the first post. It is not that hard to guess. Looking into support env dump gave me a directed idea; why do they ask for particular vars.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-03 01:13

> wannabe-devs and more... all of them will say: instead of complaining
Instead, any project should have a project management. And user oriented project should define simple user experience-oriented things, regardless of implementation. That is the basis of any project. Commercial project management adds there cost, time, technology base, etc. But user-orientation always has its final goal as user experience.
And what experience do users have with most of linux-based distributions?

I think, the image below is madness. People start thousands of projects, reach nothing because of zero management, most projects die. Then another one have a great idea... and in 5 years it dies again, Until Google comes to grab the best ;-)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Gldt92.png
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby jibberjabber » 2018-07-03 02:43

by Hale »And what experience do users have with most of linux-based distributions?

Most of us have had good experiences with linux, and Debian, that is why we choose to use Linux, instead of Windows, it is obvious you do not feel the same, so why don't you just stick with Windows, and leave us alone , ?
Hale »It is very simple in Windows.

And there are plenty of other comments by this troll that show it's feelings about linux and Debian compared to it's beloved windows.
The one thing about windows, since it is closed source, there is nothing one can do to change it and make it the kind of OS one really wants.
Linux, and BSD's are open source, we have the source code, and a free to change anything we don't like about a particular distro, we can make the OS exactly like we want it to be.
It sounds like the OP is to busy or ignorant, whining and crying that some one else needs to modify the OS for them, so it has the features they want,...it does not work that way, the developers give you a good base to work with, the rest is up to you, modify and write your own scripts or programs, and make it the way you want.
If I develop a OS, or even just a linux distro, I am happy to share it and make it available to any one else that happens to like it. If you don't like it , I really don't care, you don't have to use it, and you are free to modify it to suit your needs, or simply write/create your own.
Since Linux and Debian is not what you like, and you are unable to figure out how to make it into a system you do like, then do us all a favour , go away and leave us alone.
Something that is a little easier, simpler then Debian and Linux distros to customize is the BSD's, but that is only my opinion....
BYE !
Yes, you are right "Linux and Unix guys just don't listen", to trolls like you.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-03 03:50

>BYE !
Wow! A guy came only to throw oil on the flames, and said bye. Famous orthodox hit-and-run tactics :)
Still, still no one just even tried to guess the solution to the problem. Just displaying linux-tattooed biceps.

>Since Linux and Debian is not what you like
Hey, don't put your *** in others mouth. Who said I don't like Debian, because I choose Debian between thousands of equal? No, I like it because of promotion. Debian made itself kind of basic standard. A stability, which is magnetizing. But what I see in the current distribution, is enforced limitation of functionality, strictly predefined patterns for someone's preference, which contradict to basic Debian idea.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby None1975 » 2018-07-03 13:08

Friends. Do not need to feed this troll. Let's enjoy his favorite Windows-based system. The Debian world is not for him.
OS: Debian 9.5 / WM: Xmonad
Debian Wiki | DontBreakDebian, My config files in github
Linux User #607425
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby debiman » 2018-07-03 15:12

Hale wrote:How should I behave when some guy sends me to hell in every topic? (searching for nothing in void)

it wasn't nothing, or void.
it wasn't hell.
no need to be scared my little bunny.
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Re: Smooth multilingual IME (input method)

Postby Hale » 2018-07-11 05:13

Why don't you go to that place yourself first? Maybe one day you will find out why people hate you and Linux distributions for such "helpers".
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