What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stable?

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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby CwF » 2020-05-20 18:05

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:but it's certainly a whole lot easier to just use the buster-backports repository...


I do agree. However your own advice is to use as few backports as possible. Individual 'injections' eliminate the potential of numerous other packages from whatever repository confusing a user, or even apt. The backport repository being the safest example to add, I see no issue with that recommendation. For more delicate debs with entangled dependencies stemming from foreign repositories I highly recommend a piecemeal approach, or build it yourself.
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Gorg » 2020-05-20 19:14

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
CwF wrote:It's not difficult to then manually update if needed.

And how would the OP know when an upgrade was needed? How do you propose that they keep abreast of the new kernel vulnerabilities that are found?


I personally don't want to manually upgrade. At least not the kernel and central system software.

The Liquorix kernel seems like a great option for home use, Secure Boot wouldn't bother me as much, isn't it broken anyway at this point?
However, there are posts on their forum about some unforseen issues, I think maybe they don't have the volume to thoroughly test every release on all distros. And I don't really want to add an external repository source, if it can be avoided, it's just another potential security threat.

So I guess the backport kernel would probably be the best idea, then.

Does anybody recall instances of it breaking systems at any point? I can't really find anything in particular on it and it seems rather safe, but just to be sure. I'll probably also add Btrfs snapshots before updates.

Also, I've read that it's recommended to add the contrib and non-free repositories at the same time, is that really necessary, just for the kernel? Shouldn't it be blobless?
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-05-20 19:40

Gorg wrote:I've read that it's recommended to add the contrib and non-free repositories at the same time

That's just horrific, don't do that.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/vrms
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby CwF » 2020-05-20 19:50

Gorg wrote:Also, I've read that it's recommended to add the contrib and non-free repositories at the same time, is that really necessary, just for the kernel? Shouldn't it be blobless?

No, that's really a hardware question. You can run totally free, or not. Your needs are the dictate. Personally, when needed I'll gbedi in firmwares and the like from nonfree or contrib without enabling the repository. I take a minute every few months to check for updates and often ignore them. Typically, everything is in a vm for me so anything goes. The hypervisor does not have such cruft and it is nearly pure stable (and old stable). But that's my dictate, so maybe not your situation. I've never ran a computer with auto updates and have uptimes that span a generation. Not all computers have the same job, and the common risk of any vulnerability is not always an issue. I prefer to identify need instead of willynilly upgrades just because.

You can determine need. If you have a suitable backup method, just try it. You could have the answers by the end of the day. With all the variability possible issues it's up to people with identified needs to report. I doubt there is a wealth of info about 5.4 yet, for me the existence of the backport is a vote of confidence good enough for me, but I don't assume any guarantee.
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Gorg » 2020-05-21 11:19

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Gorg wrote:I've read that it's recommended to add the contrib and non-free repositories at the same time

That's just horrific, don't do that.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/vrms


I can't really tell if that's meant as a joke or not, but either way, I don't really need any proprietary software on my system, so I don't want to bother.

However, even the official manual kind of "suggests" doing it this way: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi ... _backports
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby eriefisher » 2020-05-21 11:47

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Gorg wrote:I've read that it's recommended to add the contrib and non-free repositories at the same time

That's just horrific, don't do that.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/vrms

Ha! Mr. Stallman might not be happy with non-free packages installed but for many hardware scenarios It's just not possible. Many people simply do not have the choice as to what hardware they use. Hand me downs and budget constraints drive a lot decisions for many folks.

If I had the choice to run completely non-free I would absolutely take it. But it would take having a machine that is 100% hardware supported in Linux. Hard to come by these day. Yes I know that you can use xxx driver instead of the non-free but that come with a performance hit in many cases or lost functionality. Is it possible to run completely FREE? I'm sure it is but there is always a cost of some kind.
____________________________________________
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-05-21 14:49

Gorg wrote:even the official manual kind of "suggests" doing it this way: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi ... _backports

That's because it's very difficult to build a machine that doesn't need non-free firmware these days. CPU µcode, wireless cards and all three graphics manufacturers need it. Of course the objections to non-free firmware are moot because any hardware that doesn't load the firmware from the operating system will have it embedded at the factory instead. For fully non-free hardware you would have to look at something like Raptor's POWER9 machines but even then the plan is scuppered as soon as you add a graphics card or a hard drive...
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Gorg » 2020-05-21 18:54

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:For fully non-free hardware you would have to look at something like Raptor's POWER9 machines


Ugh... I guess I'll make sure to avoid that, then. ;)

Well, I suppose it can't be that impossible to find those machines if Debian ships with Linux Libre by default anyway, I personally never had to do much on a live system to make it run. At worst it was "startx", if it booted into a console, usually everything worked ootb. I guess it also highly depends on how new and advanced the hardware is.

eriefisher wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Is it possible to run completely FREE? I'm sure it is but there is always a cost of some kind.


It absolutely is, it's not even that difficult. I've installed stock Debian without any non-free firmware on a couple of different servers (non-headless) and a regular old home office machine for my parents, no issues whatsoever. They all had different GPUs installed, Intel IGP, Nvidia and AMD. Soon I'll maybe also run it on my own desktop, however I may or may not need the amd-graphics package for that, because I have two HD+ displays. Yes, there can be a penalty to not using the proprietary packages, but the question is if you'd notice a difference or not.
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-05-22 15:01

Gorg wrote:It absolutely is, it's not even that difficult.

How did you manage to find a motherboard without embedded non-free firmware? Please share a link to it, I though only Raptor Computing Systems & SiFive currently offer such a thing. The hard drive controller would still have non-free firmware though, they all do. Wake up and smell the backdoors...
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Gorg » 2020-05-22 16:36

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:How did you manage to find a motherboard without embedded non-free firmware? Please share a link to it, I though only Raptor Computing Systems & SiFive currently offer such a thing.


I've corebooted an old DDR2 board for my parents specifically without any proprietary blobs, so there's that.

However, I don't think that's what you meant and I might have misunderstood your question. My mind was on running Debian just without any packages from non-free, which isn't all that problematic. We don't even need to discuss embedded firmware in hardware, it's almost impossible to replace all of that. Even the Coreboot systems usually have EC chips running proprietary code and then there are harddrive controllers and such.

With embedded firmware though, it's usually fixed in place and I'd hope the kernel or IOMMU would prevent my harddrive controller from DMAing any data or sending files over the network. My only beef with the non-free firmware packages is that they are updated constantly and I don't know what's loaded onto my system. They could probably run anything?
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby CwF » 2020-05-22 16:40

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:How did you manage to find a motherboard without embedded non-free firmware?

?? We need definitions I guess? nonfree built in you can't change anyway OR the need to use a nonfree deb? My X9SRA supermicro with a 750Ti required no firmware under stretch, or jessie, I have ran buster on it and it would like to have a firmware for the nvidia, but it pauses, post a memory region error, then boots normally. None of my X8 series 'requires' firmware. My X9DAi requires the amd firmware for its 3 amdgpu's and hauppauge's and...
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Re: What's the recommended way to get newer kernels on Stabl

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-05-22 17:01

Gorg wrote:We don't even need to discuss embedded firmware in hardware, it's almost impossible to replace all of that. Even the Coreboot systems usually have EC chips running proprietary code and then there are harddrive controllers and such.

Yes indeed, that's what I meant. The memory controllers also contain blobs.

There are also the management engines in x86 CPUs — all Intel chips since 2008 and all AMD chips since 2013 run blobs at ring -3.

And I was wrong about SiFive, the only fully free mainboards available are the POWER9 devices from Raptor which use OpenBMC.
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