Common Courtesy Previously: Use of Sarcasm in this section.

[Bro.Tiag]

So... are other people going to make fun of us now, for making friends with each other?

I may or may not have, but it's by PM/email so you'll never know, now will you. : P

[ComputerBob]

So... are other people going to make fun of us now, for making friends with each other?

I may or may not have, but it's by PM/email so you'll never know, now will you. : P

Or I will know, but I won't tell you that I know.

[Absent Minded]

It is only my opinion but I agree with ComputerBob that it would be attacking another forum member to use their post as an example. It could imbarras them, make them feel attacked even. Pointing out anothers mistakes is not "polite" and is offencive to that person (possibly).

Ok, so this is where we're at: We clearly disagree on how people interact on this forum. Those that say that people are rude, impolite and attack especially newcomers feel a need to voice their concern and discuss this on the forum. Those of us who don't recognize the picture that is painted and indeed does not even now what it is you are referring to should accept that you are in fact correct, because if you we're to offer an example of what you claim this would in itself be a part of the problem you claim exist. (Never mind that we are all grown-ups here who presumably could stand for and take responsibility of what we post.) Well, if this is the framework of the debate I can't really argue, can I? What you claim must be taken as a given and that's that.

As an end note of my participation in this thread I'll just say that I believe that the concern over politeness, rudeness et cetera that has been voiced on Debian Forums the last months have ironically enough made the forums a little more hostile than it was before, due to the inflammatory remarks that the debate spark. It has also made the forum a less vibrant place. At least that is my perception of it.

Over and out.
/mojoman

I just want to note that there have been 3 examples of this behavior brought up in this thread by the users themselves. One doesn't acknowledge the problem exists but yet gave his example at the beginning of this thread. Yet 2 others have come forward with their side of things both acknowledging that they would have handled things differently and express a desire to be different in the future. Anyway so there have been examples given however mild they are. I would like to express my thanks and gratitude for these users stepping up to talk about things.

[mdevour]

I've been around the forums less the last several weeks, but I've managed to visit every other day or so and scan new posts. I make an extra effort to check in on Beginners' Section threads to see if the posters are getting the help they need and if there's something I can add.

I can make a few observations from this:

The Beginners' Section seems to be working pretty well. I don't recall seeing any but the mildest incidents of teasing or sarcasm in that section, and most of the "customers" being satisfied. It is clear that people are extending an extra measure of courtesy in their activities there, for which I am grateful. I assume I'll find the thread Julian apologized about once I get to page 3 of New Posts. The fact that it is an unusual occurrence is a very good sign, IMO. I fully support Michael's desire to preserve the progress that's been made.

I also notice a continuing undercurrent of grumbling about the existence of the Beginners' Section, marked by sarcastic remarks and labels for it that belittle the people who use and support it. I'm sad to see that, since I think it's achieving its purpose and that purpose is worthwhile.

I am encouraged that I haven't stumbled on any threads in other parts of the forums where people were being mistreated, though I could have missed them...

This is what I would generally expect of the members of this forum. Problems are comparatively rare. Even those whose approach I occasionally object to are normally helpful. Many, hopefully most of the posters get the help they ask for, and more.

I want the forums' reputation to be as good as the actual results. I think, inadvertently, Dean pointed out the way to achieve this when he said:

They can laugh at themselves and agree and make it all positive and productive or they can be offended by it and miss the answer and make it all negative. It is all in how you take it....not how it is offered.

When you think someone is being lazy or stupid and this offends you, you can always ignore them, or laugh at yourself and make it all positive and productive. It's all in how you take it, not how they offered it.

Be well,

Mike D.

[mdevour]

If I had noticed that the thread was in the beginner section and/or considered that fact then I probably wouldn't have posted in the same way, perhaps at all.

It would be really nice if threads in the Beginners' Section could be flagged in New and Unanswered Posts, and Active Topics listings by the thread title or at least the subforum label being a different color. Perhaps the theme could be modified to give only that section a different page color scheme when you displayed a thread?

I think one or more of these changes would be the simplest way to spare folks from making the kind of mistake Julian did. Those looking for beginners' posts would find them more easily, those avoiding them could, and anybody answering one would at least realize where they were.

If I can scrape up the energy I'll tinker on my local test install of phpBB3 to see how easy it is to do any of those things. It could be a bit of a hassle since we have a bunch of themes that might all need to be modified. If anybody else wants to beat me to it, please do, it won't be hard.

Mike D.

[refracta]

When you think someone is being lazy or stupid and this offends you, you can always ignore them, or laugh at yourself and make it all positive and productive. It's all in how you take it, not how they offered it.

And if we ignore them then we get asked why we do not respond or we get posts complaining about the number of unanswered posts.....and what exactly does all that do for the forums reputation?

It doesn't offend me when someone is lazy (or stupid) but I think the better lesson to teach is that lazy (or stupid) is not appreciated in debian circles as opposed to teaching them that it is acceptable, welcome, and even protected by the rules.

I find it pretty damn mean that people come to the forums known for providing good help and dictate that things should change and how they should change.


someone should of posted this already...

http://wiki.debian.org/TheFable

The Fable of the Channel of #debian

Once upon a time, there was an IRC network called OPN (which is now called FN, freenode)), which had a nice little Channel called #debian. And all the people of Debianland would gather there, and they would talk. Some of these people were the kind that breathed and ate and slept and (allegedly) thought; and some were the kind that lived in computers and followed precise instructions to the letter. But they all lived happily together, for the most part, and talked and talked all the night and day.

Debian began to prosper and to spread its ideas far and wide, and the population of Debianland grew, as populations of the breathing-and-eating kinds of people are wont to do. When new people suddenly come into existence, they are quite ignorant, for they lack the rich heritage and experience of the people who have been around for a while. The new people demanded care and attention, and they had neither manners nor respect for rules. They did not read the instructions that the elders laid before them, nor did they put thought or time into their questions. They were incapable of caring for themselves, and had to be diapered and fed and burped. Those that could not grow beyond the infant stage were cast out of the Channel. Even the people who lived inside the computers and followed instructions were similarly rude and insensitive, spewing their creators' advertisements to everyone near and far.

The once merry Channel had become crowded, and chaotic, and tumultuous. People had to be turned away when they committed increasingly minor offenses. The elders no longer had the time to put diapers on all of the newborn people, and burp them, and read them bedtime stories. The elders only had time to stack up the diapers in neat little rows, and the books in other rows, and say unto the babies, "Here, do thou read this fine manual, and put upon thyself this diaper, for thou dost pollute the very air." And some of the newborn babies diapered themselves, and read the books that the elders had written, and grew into children and even adults. And others of the newborn babies threw tantrums, demanding that someone else read the books for them, and they were scolded and spanked and sent away.

Some of the babies throwing tantrums were not even members of Debianland; they were changelings that had wandered in from foreign lands, such as the neighboring dukedom of Knoppixton, or the Island of Ubuntubia. And they harassed the elders of the Channel of #debian, demanding that the elders fix the problems that they had on their strange Island, all the while pretending that the problem was actually occurring within Debianland. And the elders would waste great amounts of time scratching their heads, wondering how such a problem could be occurring within Debianland, for the problem made no sense. Then, when the elder finally learned that the problem was one of Knoppixton or Ubuntubia, the elder would wax wroth, and would hurl the changeling out of the Channel, followed by a stream of invective and curses.

But some of these unchanged babes complained to the King of Debianland, saying unto him, "The elders of #debian are mean and rude, and they do not answer our questions!" And the King and his Court came unto the Channel of #debian, and they saw the elders scolding and spanking the babies who needed to be disciplined, and hurling away the changelings. And they said unto the elders, "You are rude, and We like it not. You will be rude no more, for you bear Our name, and your rudeness in Our name will not be tolerated."

And so the elders faced a dilemma. The King and his Court did not know the ways of the Channel of #debian, nor of the people who demanded to be babied, nor how to deal with them. The Court had other responsibilities, and if they were to spend their time changing diapers and reading bedtime stories to whining infants, the land of Debian would fall into disrepair, for who would maintain the buildings and the fields? Most of the elders of the Channel of #debian were not of the Court, and most of the Court were not familiar with the Channel. Neither the elders nor the Court could do the job of the other; and yet the Court had been incited by the King to come and Investigate The Problem Of The Channel. So for a few days, a handful of the Courtiers would come into the Channel, and would attempt to change a few diapers, and then they would leave. The elders watched, shaking their heads sadly, knowing that the situation was not healthy, yet not knowing how to bring back the times of joy and conviviality that the Channel had once known.

[refracta]

I think one or more of these changes would be the simplest way...

I think the simplest way would be to create a group that has access to the beginners section and allow the mean people to unsubscribe from that group.