Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regarding

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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Harkonnen » 2017-05-04 12:11

The trolls are at large here it seems :) It is really really hard to break debian to an unfixable state. I have not reinstalled since i first installed woody ~17 years ago, using hundreds of 3-rd party packages, even mixing sid and testing at some point (never go sid if you intent to go back to stable - yep getting from there to the next stable taken a few hours of manual aptitude changes, but it wasnt broken). And all if this is irrelevant to the question at hand because nothing i have installed from ppas or self build packages can even theoretically touch namespaces.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby pylkko » 2017-05-05 11:17

Harkonnen wrote:The trolls are at large here it seems :) It is really really hard to break debian to an unfixable state. I have not reinstalled since i first installed woody ~17 years ago, using hundreds of 3-rd party packages, even mixing sid and testing at some point (never go sid if you intent to go back to stable - yep getting from there to the next stable taken a few hours of manual aptitude changes, but it wasnt broken). And all if this is irrelevant to the question at hand because nothing i have installed from ppas or self build packages can even theoretically touch namespaces.

I believe that any rational and intelligent person would allow as much as this: 1) Empirical evidence on this board suggests that it is indeed quite possible and easy to brake Debian 2) that you have managed to do this for 17 years does not mean that it is not dangerous, just as you might have smoked cigarettes for the last 17 years without health problems and nothing follows, 3) it is possible to go from sid to stable and there are posts about how to do this 4) of course it is possible to install packages from these repos with care, but if you give us the information that you here have and no one else has had this problem upgrading, then it is entirely rational to begin to suspect that you have something idiosyncratic about your system w.r.t this issue 5) if you really believe in your opinion that it is entirely impossible that anything from the third party repos etc. that you have installed has interfered here (and you don't want to demonstrate this much), then the next most likely place to look would be at the changelog for the point release that you upgraded.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Harkonnen » 2017-05-06 02:56

pylkko wrote: but if you give us the information that you here have and no one else has had this problem upgrading, then it is entirely rational to begin to suspect that you have something idiosyncratic about your system w.r.t this issue


How many people use autofs and ip namespaces? No reports about such niche issue is not an indication that it is unique to only this system. Especially if you consider that according to the internet it shouldn't have worked as it was setup at all (but it did).
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Bulkley » 2017-05-06 03:10

Installing packages from other sources can work; this is Linux after all. Anyone with the skills can do it. The problem comes with upgrades. A stable Debian release has been tested to ensure that packages not only work together but will still work after an upgrade. For example, many users install proprietary video drivers and find that they work well until they do an upgrade that leaves the proprietary package stranded or (worse) conflicted. Essentially, it works until it doesn't.

Harkonnen, your system can be fixed but it may take a lot of work to find the conflict and sort it out.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby dasein » 2017-05-06 04:23

Harkonnen wrote:No reports about such niche issue is not an indication that it is unique to only this system.

It's not an indication of anything, period. But pylkko's observation was about conditional probability and nothing else. Nice try for the strawman, though.

Harkonnen wrote:...according to the internet it shouldn't have worked as it was setup at all (but it did).

Except when it didn't. :roll:
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby JLloyd13 » 2017-05-06 12:34

Harkonnen wrote:The trolls are at large here it seems :) It is really really hard to break debian to an unfixable state. I have not reinstalled since i first installed woody ~17 years ago, using hundreds of 3-rd party packages, even mixing sid and testing at some point (never go sid if you intent to go back to stable - yep getting from there to the next stable taken a few hours of manual aptitude changes, but it wasnt broken). And all if this is irrelevant to the question at hand because nothing i have installed from ppas or self build packages can even theoretically touch namespaces.


If you have the skills to deal with that kind of potential dependency hell, good for you. But don't expect help fixing your mess if that's your setup. This is a forum for Debian questions, not DebianUbuntuSidTestingFranken Linux.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Harkonnen » 2017-05-07 20:22

dasein wrote:
Harkonnen wrote:...according to the internet it shouldn't have worked as it was setup at all (but it did).

Except when it didn't. :roll:


Yep, and that's is what interest me in this after i found a workaround. Why the **** it worked if it shouldn't and why update to some seemingly unrelated package broke it?
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby kopper » 2017-05-09 17:19

Harkonnen wrote:
Yep, and that's is what interest me in this after i found a workaround. Why the **** it worked if it shouldn't and why update to some seemingly unrelated package broke it?


Well, if you take couple of Jenga blocks away and place the with new ones, the tower might still stand even if the blocks in the tower are of different size or shape. Until it doesn't, when you try to put yet another type of block in between or on top of it. You've been lucky, now your not.

Lame anecdote for your rather lame, previously well-documented problem of mixing repos.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Harkonnen » 2017-05-09 17:23

again, this definitely has absolutely nothing to do with mixing repos.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby debiman » 2017-05-09 17:59

Harkonnen wrote:again, this definitely has absolutely nothing to do with mixing repos.

lol, i think i'll make a wallpaper from this :D
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-05-10 06:04

@OP: I think the real lesson here is that this community will not offer support to FrankenDebian users.

Please reproduce this issue in a clean Debian system.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby dasein » 2017-05-10 14:42

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Please reproduce this issue in a clean Debian system.
And document the repro steps in sufficient detail to allow others to duplicate the phenomenon in its entirety.
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby Harkonnen » 2017-05-10 16:47

I have a feeling that people are responding without actually reading about situation, saw "FrankenDebain" - have to post some snarky remark.

What exactly here is to reproduce?! System in a current, up to date state behaves exactly as it supposed. Autofs + mount namespaces quirks are documented and there is a documented workaround (why the --make-shared is not a default i dont known, but there must be some reasons for this, there would be easier to change this than to document :) ). My confusion about situation came from the fact that i dont use mount namespaces explicitly, as soon as i realized the source of the problem i found the aforementioned documentation.

As its became apparent system behavior was abnormal before the update, but how exactly are you supposed to reproduce abnormal behavior if you dont know why it was abnormal and what exactly stopped it?!
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby stevepusser » 2017-05-10 17:55

Yeah, the only really possibly problematic repos I see in the list are the PPAs--the others are just backports repos. But there is a non-zero chance that something in those repos could also have been misconfigured. You are just trusting the maintainers (including me :lol: for Pale Moon) to know what they're doing, and of course some packages have the potential to accidentally damage your system much more than others.

I guess the point is that it's very going to be very difficult to pin down the blame for the breakage to a specific package remotely. You're going to have to really put in the work and reproduce it if you want to say for sure it's a Debian issue and can't be linked to any of those outside repos. It could be even be something that's harmless in a Debian update that only goes bad when it meets up with an outside package--who can really say from here?
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Re: Debian update caused major breakage in my workflow regar

Postby debiman » 2017-05-11 14:27

Harkonnen wrote:I have a feeling that people are responding without actually reading about situation, saw "FrankenDebain" - have to post some snarky remark.

personally i can say that i was following this thread even before you posted your sources.
and even then the thread still had a chance to come to a constructive solution, but it was YOU who categorally refused to accept that your sources could have ANYTHING to do with the issue - and that's when things started to go "snarky".
because one doesn't need to be very clever to understand that you cannot make a statement like that.

an analogy:
guy drives home from the pub, in his car, drunk senseless, every weekend, for 17 years.
never has an accident.
only then he has one.
and he keeps on insisting that it has nothing to do with his drinking. that it CANNOT have anything to do with his drunkenness, because there was a chicken on the road that had NEVER been there before!
:mrgreen:
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