Mixing Stretch and Sid

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Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby MarkDees » 2018-02-11 23:59

Hi,

I am running Stretch + Gnome 3.26 from Sid. My system is working nicely.

I added Sid to sources.list to get Gnome 3.26 and then commented it out afterwards. I know that this was not the proper way to do it but am not clear on what the best way is going forward.

I know I should be getting normal updates from Stable including security. Do I need to do anything given that my system now has many pieces from Sid so that I get updates to those too?

I appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

Mark
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-02-12 00:26

https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
The reason things can break is because the software packaged for one Debian release is built to be compatible with the rest of the software for that release. For example, installing packages from buster on a stretch system could also install newer versions of core libraries including libc6. This results in a system that is not testing or stable but a broken mix of the two.

by MarkDees »I appreciate any advice.

The advice is all ready there, in the above link,
by MarkDees » I know that this was not the proper way to do it but am not clear on what the best way is going forward.

And you admit, you know that is not the correct way, it appears to me, you would not follow any advice given any way, so what is the point in asking ?
Don't suffer from Shiny New Stuff Syndrome

The reason that Debian Stable is so reliable is because software is extensively tested and bug-fixed before being included. This means that the most recent version of software is often not available in the Stable repositories. But it doesn't mean that the software is too old to be useful!

Before attempting to install the newest version of some software from somewhere other than the Debian Stable repositories, here are some things to keep in mind: ---- snip -----

The Debian sid repositories are NOT the Debian stable repositories,
Repositories that can create a FrankenDebian if used with Debian Stable:

Debian testing release (currently buster)

Debian unstable release (also known as sid)


It is ok,to do what you want, it is your system, and perhaps if you are skilled enough you will be able to administer and manage it. But the advice remains the same, if you want a stable, reliable system , don't do these things.
by MarkDees »Do I need to do anything given that my system now has many pieces from Sid so that I get updates to those too?

If you want to run Debian sid, that is fine, what you should have done is upgraded your system to Debian sid, and run Debian sid.
If you want to run Debian stable, which would be better , then run Debian Stable, but any way, this is a waste of time , your not going to follow any advice, do what you want.

Do you mean "updates" as in security updates ?
https://www.debian.org/releases/sid/
--part--you really should read all of it, and more documentation--
Please note that security updates for "unstable" distribution are not managed by the security team. Hence, "unstable" does not get security updates in a timely manner. For more information please see the Security Team's FAQ.

"sid" is subject to massive changes and in-place library updates. This can result in a very "unstable" system which contains packages that cannot be installed due to missing libraries, dependencies that cannot be fulfilled etc. Use it at your own risk!
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2018-02-12 04:30

Yeah, you broke it - it's only a matter of time (probably next upgrade).

A mixed system is testing/sid as per viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15612 (an oldie but still a goodie), but it doesn't work with stable.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby MarkDees » 2018-02-12 05:36

dilberts_left_nut wrote:Yeah, you broke it - it's only a matter of time (probably next upgrade).

A mixed system is testing/sid as per viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15612 (an oldie but still a goodie), but it doesn't work with stable.


Thanks for the link. I have been doing more reading and getting my arms around this.

Mostly, I want to be on stable but with the newer Gnome. It turns out that the new Gnome is also in testing (not just unstable). From what I read, it looks like security updates do find their way into testing so I should just use that instead of sid.

I have backups so I am OK to do things that might break my system.

So I have two questions:

1. I think if I remove Gnome and reinstall from testing I should be good to go?

2. If I have my sources.list and /etc/apt/preferences as follows, would my system know to get updates to the dependencies that came from testing when I do my normal apt-get update and apt-get upgrade?

Thanks!
Mark

sources.list
Code: Select all
########################################################################
#stretch
########################################################################
deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch main

deb     http://httpredir.debian.org/debian stretch-updates main contrib
deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian stretch-updates main contrib

deb-src http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main
deb http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main

########################################################################
#stretch backports
########################################################################
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian stretch-backports main

########################################################################
#buster
########################################################################
deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster main
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster main

deb     http://httpredir.debian.org/debian buster-updates main contrib
deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian buster-updates main contrib

deb-src http://security.debian.org/ buster/updates main
deb http://security.debian.org/ buster/updates main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main

deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free


/etc/apt/preferences
Code: Select all
Package: *
Pin: release o=Debian,n=stretch
Pin-Priority: 450


Package: *
Pin: release o=Debian,n=stretch-backports
Pin-Priority: 425


Package: *
Pin: release o=Debian,n=buster
Pin-Priority: 400
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2018-02-12 05:58

No, you can't reliably mix stable with anything else, especially with a big thing like gnome and all it's dependencies.
If you really must have newer gnome, Debian Stable is not what you want to be running.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby debiman » 2018-02-12 06:11

MarkDees wrote:Mostly, I want to be on stable but with the newer Gnome.

you should look at backports, how to use them etc.
https://wiki.debian.org/Backports
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2018-02-12 06:48

A full DE like Gnome won't be making an appearance in backports.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-02-12 07:00

If you want shiny then Just use sid and learn how to deal with the API/ABI changes and random b0rkage — it's all good fun :twisted:
"Only the mediocre are always at their best." — Jean Giraudoux
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-02-12 13:53

Debian 9 is just fine with GNOME 3.22. If you want to always have the newest GNOME (and like GNOME in general), Fedora is your distro.
Or you can run Testing or Sid and enjoy the "fun" or repairing it every now and then.
Why Debian isn't user-friendly?
HOWTO: Install ES3 Morrowind on Debian Sid and Stable
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby cds60601 » 2018-02-12 14:05

MarkDees wrote:Hi,

I am running Stretch + Gnome 3.26 from Sid. My system is working nicely.

I added Sid to sources.list to get Gnome 3.26 and then commented it out afterwards. I know that this was not the proper way to do it but am not clear on what the best way is going forward.

I know I should be getting normal updates from Stable including security. Do I need to do anything given that my system now has many pieces from Sid so that I get updates to those too?

I appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

Mark


While I absolutely respect the advice that the folks here give on not breaking your system, one needs to keep in mind that even the Debian Handbook touches on this in the following section:

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi ... et.en.html

More specifically, 6.2.6. Working with Several Distributions...

If you must mix, follow what is the written word right from the Debian site. After reading this section, I come away with this is an expected process and that there appears to be "some" safety nets put in place if followed correctly.
This could change if/when Debian published the handbook for 9 - since the current posted handbook is for 8.

I understand and appreciate the hardcore stance on mixing systems, but my opinion is that the hardcore stance is simply a way to deflect helping users that don't follow the Debian Handbook way of mixing systems when the system breaks. Of course, my opinion means nothing but if the hardcore stance is to be maintained, at least be honest about it and point to a Debian written source on how someone "might" follow the mixing process WITH the caveat that the user should not ask for help if they do should the system break.

I am probably the laziest person here when it comes to offering to help someone that borks a system due to ignorance, but at least provide references on how someone might move along that path as long as it's outlined in an official Debian resource, which this is. and at least show a tab of respect to someone that is asking for help.
There is a way to help a person that has done something out of ignorance and there is a way to help that same person and have them dumping Debian simply because they were treated badly.

Think of how many times any of us have vowed to "never again" a product/service simply because a person you contacted for help, disrespected you.
...just saying :)
Yeah, 220, 221. Whatever it takes.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-02-12 14:15

^No dissrespect to the Debian Handboo writers, but someone has to revise what's written there. Because even the most hardcore Debian gurus don't do that anymore, it's simply not worth it. More so, it's even more unreliable than just running Sid.
To advise that to a new user is to make them eventually hate Debian for no good reason.
Why Debian isn't user-friendly?
HOWTO: Install ES3 Morrowind on Debian Sid and Stable
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-02-12 14:19

There is a way to help a person that has done something out of ignorance and there is a way to help that same person and have them dumping Debian simply because they were treated badly.


I don't see any where that any body was disrespectful. I can't speak for others, but if I decided to not use Debian, it is because I decided Debian is not what I want, it has nothing to do with how someone treated me on some forum, like wise, if I don't like a product, and decide to not use it ,
it is because the product does not suit me, it has nothing to do with how someone I contacted behaves,..
Think of how many times any of us have vowed to "never again" a product/service simply because a person you contacted for help, disrespected you.
Never

Why did you even bring this up ? Are you trolling ? never mind, don't answer that.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby bw123 » 2018-02-12 14:52

cds60601 wrote:...even the Debian Handbook touches on this in the following section:
<snip>
More specifically, 6.2.6. Working with Several Distributions...


That section does not say to add gnome desktop from sid on stable. It says this:

For example, after having installed a Stable system, you might want to try out a software package available in Testing or Unstable without diverging too much from the system's initial state.


Gnome desktop is hardly just "a software package" and I would think sid ver diverges quite a bit from initial state, but I haven't tried it.

The reason people on here sometimes seem dogmatic is that people misquote, or selectively quote from documentation without reading it and understanding what it says. People who have read this forum for a long time have seen the results of this many many times, it's not pretty.
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby MarkDees » 2018-02-12 15:12

Thanks gents. I appreciate all of the advice.

I'm thinking that I should just proceed and use Testing only. I am OK if I have to tinker sometimes and I make backups so I can roll back settings pretty easily if something breaks that I can't figure out.

I like that Testing is a little more mature than Sid and also that it gets the security updates so it seems like a good compromise.

For Gnome, that I installed from Sid: I'm still thinking best to remove it and reinstall from Testing. Even though the version# is the same, I'm thinking I should get the dependencies loaded from Testing. Going forward, everything would come from Testing and so it's no longer a mixed system.

Am I missing anything in the above?

Thanks again,
Mark
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Re: Mixing Stretch and Sid

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-02-12 15:18

MarkDees wrote:Testing is a little more mature than Sid and also that it gets the security updates so it seems like a good compromise.

Testing gets security updates last. If security is your primary concern, use Stable. If you need both new and secure, use something like Fedora. Note for Fedora that only packages in Fedora's own repos get fast security updates. There are a lot of community packages in RPMfusion which don't.
Why Debian isn't user-friendly?
HOWTO: Install ES3 Morrowind on Debian Sid and Stable
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