[OT] Not likely of interest to most readers. And it is long.
I have been waiting until debcub was satisfied he had the answers he wanted.
Since it appears that debcub isn't going to return to this thread I want to write something more.
By the way, in general, I think it is confusing for an inexperienced user who is trying to learn, when too many "helpers" are firing things at them with a "check this", "check that" and people trying to inject their own philosophy into it or when sometimes they are just stating something in different words than what has already stated.
H_o_a_S, you were doing modern, logical, methodical, troubleshooting, in this example, check is the software there, then checking status and the journal, that's why I stopped responding with my oldschool approach of manually checking configuration files. debcub showed a willingness to learn and following modern methods would serve him well in the future since he has committed to using Debian.
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Thorny wrote:Head_on_a_Stick wrote: the stock Debian stable desktop now updates and upgrades the machine automatically OOTB with no user intervention, I think this is a good thing
Well, we'll have to disagree on that, I fear it encourages users not to learn.
I can accept that you have your opinion, I don't understand why you choose denegrate mine. (Rhetorical question.)
I have actually seen posts in this forum suggesting to not upgrade for various reasons, I think it likely that you have also, yet you didn't stomp in there and tell them their opinions were wrong. Were you having a "bad day".(Rhetorical question.)
Crowing about being a developer of a distro that aims to be an out-of-box experience is not relevant to the issue. However I am awed by your awesomeness.
Debian in the past never had the intention to be an out-of-box experience and has never been considered an OS for the inexperienced. It has been for users who want to learn and do learn and that is also the user that I most want to help.
Granted, Debian may change, perhaps is changing, and maybe even should change.
The fact that Debian is now gaining market share as a desktop distro may well be, in part or wholly, due to efforts of developers like yourself and the ease of installation and preconfiguring that Debian derivitives offer but that hasn't been, and I suspect still isn't, a main goal of the Debian Project. I am a dinosaur and I realise the world might change but I think I've been doing this long enough that I am entitled to an opinion, even if it differs from yours.
I did state that I am not using Stretch yet. I havent yet found anything in the Release Notes for Stretch detailing a change to automatic upgrades, maybe I just missed it, my Jessie doesn't automatically upgrade but maybe I forgot about changing something that stopped that because of my preference. I am aware of many posts in the Ubuntu Forums where the poster states, the system did an update (sic) and then "foo" stopped working, leaving them high and dry because clicking a button doesn't usually encourage one to examine what was going to happen so they have no clue where to start looking or what might have changed. This isn't about Ubuntu but that is where a lot of examples of clueless users exist. However, as I did state, I prefer having a bit more control and looking at what is to be upgraded and be able to choose when I let it happen, I wanted debcub to consider that too. I did mention that someone running a server 24/7 might want automatic updates and that has been possible even without a gui to handle it.
It seems to me that you bring up a straw man making it seem that I don't support keeping a system upgraded when in fact I am on record more than once in these forums suggesting that a poster upgrade to the latest point release, even when that isn't what they were asking about. Although I don't remember ever seeing you telling people who were running software that wasn't updated to the latest point release, to update it, when that was not the specific issue that you were dealing with in the thread. I also don't remember you ever chiming in and supporting when I have suggested updating to the latest point release.
So, to use your logic, does that mean that you are negligent in your duty as a helper, a prolific one, here by letting their systems become vulnerable? If they get hacked, is it your fault (in part, at least)? Personally, I don't think so.
And, why did you leave off the first part of what I wrote in your quote, you made it seem as if I was trying to send him back to ubuntu, when I was actually suggesting a choice, the "simplest" thing to do to have things the way he wanted them since he was already familiar with Ubuntu. I have to support Ubuntu for someone who will not change and I would not choose to send someone there.
Knowledgable users, ones who have learned what they need, in order to successfuly keep systems safe and running, know the importance of updating their software. And they know how to proceed when a gui interface fails. I don't see anything wrong with them learning that.
So, if I offended you, I am sorry. So very, very, sorry! But "You can't bring me down"
Whew! That was long!