Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update?

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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-02-15 07:01

debcub wrote:Like I said in my first post "Debian 9 Stretch Stable". I confess I forgot to add "Gnome Classic".

That is strange because the Debian stretch GNOME desktop has unattended-upgrades installed and enabled OOTB.

Can we please see
Code: Select all
apt-cache policy unattended-upgrades

It should be installed, I think.
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debcub » 2018-02-15 10:53

Thank you! Here are two screenshots exemplifying why I am puzzled and why a Debian newbie even might be fooled:

*** 1 ***
Image

You get there from Settings > Details. But when I hit the button <Check for updates> I got the answer "System ok, no new updates". However, when I did the "# apt update" thind, there were about 200 MB of updates!

*** 2 ***
Image

You get there from Applications > Activities overview > Update. But despite the clearly vixible settings I get neither notifications nor automatic updates.

Of course I know how to "# apt" etc, but why these buttons if they don't do what they promise? Will I have to wait for Buster as Wheelerof4te said above?
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debcub » 2018-02-15 19:53

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Can we please see
Code: Select all
apt-cache policy unattended-upgrades

It should be installed, I think.


Code: Select all
~$ apt-cache policy unattended-upgrades
unattended-upgrades:
  Installed: 0.93.1+nmu1
  Candidate: 0.93.1+nmu1
  Version table:
 *** 0.93.1+nmu1 500
        500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
~$
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Thorny » 2018-02-15 23:33

I'm going to touch on a few things here.

debcub wrote:What would be wrong if my wife could use Debian without waiting for me to come back home and do "# apt upgrade"?

Nothing, if you trust your wife and you are a root user you could give her the ability to run the apt update and apt upgrade commands. You just don't know how to do that. You'd have to learn how to give rights to run those packages in sudoers. But it won't be a GUI that you as root can just click.

I'm still using Jessie so I can't check Stretch for you but I think it likely that the default configuration for unattended upgrades would be just for security upgrades. So when you found 200MB of upgrades available after pressing whatever button you pushed, were any of them security upgrades?

In my second post in this thread I gave you a link to the Debian Wiki.
Have you confirmed that things are configured the way you want them as per the info in there?

Personally, I don't think I would want my system to automagically upgrade, that takes some control away from the system administrator but it could be your choice.
Except perhaps in the case of a server that runs 24/7 and you don't have 24/7 administrators.

The simplest thing would be for you to return to Ubuntu where those things are done for you.
Good luck!
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debcub » 2018-02-16 05:05

OK, I understand. These "button things" I described in detail above are a work of progress. They will probably funtion to my liking with the next Debian version.

However, since I get to like Debian more and more, I will keep un-Ubuntuing, enjoy Debian and do "# apt upgradrade" :D

And thanks for your efforts to listen to a Debian greenhorn ;)
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debiman » 2018-02-16 05:42

debcub wrote:OK, I understand. These "button things" I described in detail above are a work of progress. They will probably funtion to my liking with the next Debian version.

sounds like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions in this thread.
i would rephrase that:
These "button things" don't necessarily work out of the box. They will probably funtion to my liking only after i carefully set them up manually.

fwiw, i think your thread is a very good example of why these bloated UIs are pretty useless on a linux desktop, although the underlying functionality is extremely sturdy & reliable.
there's no need to think that there's a bug that needs to be ironed out in the next version.
also, you are talking about gnome. gnome is not debian; it's just the default desktop environment.

if you really like gnome so much (probably less after these experiences), you should consider using ubuntu.
i bet they take more care of making these graphic utility gimmicks work.
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-02-16 07:25

Thorny wrote:return to Ubuntu where those things are done for you

As I mentioned above, the stock Debian stable desktop now updates and upgrades the machine automatically OOTB with no user intervention, I think this is a good thing :)

@OP: can we now please see
Code: Select all
systemctl status unattended-upgrades

And perhaps even
Code: Select all
# journalctl -u unattended-upgrades
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Thorny » 2018-02-16 09:20

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: the stock Debian stable desktop now updates and upgrades the machine automatically OOTB with no user intervention, I think this is a good thing :)

Well, we'll have to disagree on that, I fear it encourages users not to learn. And according to debcub, it doesn't work.

However, your advice of using systemctl and journalctl to further isolate the problem is sound and debcub should continue to work with you on that.
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debcub » 2018-02-16 15:58

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:@OP: can we now please see
Code: Select all
systemctl status unattended-upgrades

And perhaps even
Code: Select all
# journalctl -u unattended-upgrades



Code: Select all
~$ systemctl status unattended-upgrades
● unattended-upgrades.service - Unattended Upgrades Shutdown
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/unattended-upgrades.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
   Active: active (exited) since Fri 2018-02-16 17:16:00 CET; 15min ago
     Docs: man:unattended-upgrade(8)
    Tasks: 0 (limit: 4915)
  CGroup: /system.slice/unattended-upgrades.service

  lines 1-6/6 (END)

<Q>

~$


Code: Select all
# journalctl -u unattended-upgrades
-- Logs begin at Fri 2018-02-16 17:15:29 CET, end at Fri 2018-02-16 17:36:51 CET. -d-
Feb 16 17:16:00 debbie systemd[1]: Started Unattended Upgrades Shutdown.
#


P.S. Not to be misunderstood: I know Ubuntu's Gnome (it's standard since 17.10) but I like Debian 9's Gnome better :)
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Bulkley » 2018-02-16 18:46

debcub wrote:Once I read a comment "never trust the Debian update GUIs". is this still true?


I don't think that was ever the point. When doing a big upgrade it is always wise to have as few programs running as necessary. When doing a dist-upgrade (as from Jessie to Stretch) I shut down X and work from a terminal. This applies to all distros, not just Debian.

The most reliable apt GUI is Synaptic. I have no trouble using it to install software. What I like most about Synaptic is the search function.
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-02-17 11:03

Thorny wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote: the stock Debian stable desktop now updates and upgrades the machine automatically OOTB with no user intervention, I think this is a good thing :)

Well, we'll have to disagree on that, I fear it encourages users not to learn.

One of the main advantages of Debian stable is the ease of management and as somebody who is listed as a developer in a distribution I would offer the perspective from the other side of the fence — we have users who post saying that they have not updated their system since installation many months ago and there have been several high-profile vulnerabilities in that time for which fixes were made available by the Debian Security Team: am I negligent in my duty by letting their systems become vulnerable? If they get hacked, is it my fault (in part, at least)?

The only updates pushed out by Debian during the lifetime of the stable release are by definition absolutely critical and should always be applied as soon as possible.

Back to the topic in hand...

@OP: it looks like you do have unattended-upgrades so perhaps you just managed to catch it between runs with your 100MiB upgrade.

Can we please see
Code: Select all
# unattended-upgrade -d
ESTRAGON: We always find something, eh, Didi, to give us the impression we exist?
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby debiman » 2018-02-17 11:55

debcub wrote:
Code: Select all
~$ systemctl status unattended-upgrades
● unattended-upgrades.service - Unattended Upgrades Shutdown
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/unattended-upgrades.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
   Active: active (exited) since Fri 2018-02-16 17:16:00 CET; 15min ago
     Docs: man:unattended-upgrade(8)
    Tasks: 0 (limit: 4915)
  CGroup: /system.slice/unattended-upgrades.service

  lines 1-6/6 (END)

<Q>

~$

Code: Select all
# journalctl -u unattended-upgrades
-- Logs begin at Fri 2018-02-16 17:15:29 CET, end at Fri 2018-02-16 17:36:51 CET. -d-
Feb 16 17:16:00 debbie systemd[1]: Started Unattended Upgrades Shutdown.
#


  1. it's strange that the unattended-upgrades service has no log output.
  2. journalctl mentions "Shutdown" - maybe that means that unattended upgrades are delayed unitl shutdown?
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[OT]Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not up

Postby Thorny » 2018-02-21 08:58

[OT] Not likely of interest to most readers. And it is long.

I have been waiting until debcub was satisfied he had the answers he wanted.
Since it appears that debcub isn't going to return to this thread I want to write something more.

By the way, in general, I think it is confusing for an inexperienced user who is trying to learn, when too many "helpers" are firing things at them with a "check this", "check that" and people trying to inject their own philosophy into it or when sometimes they are just stating something in different words than what has already stated.

H_o_a_S, you were doing modern, logical, methodical, troubleshooting, in this example, check is the software there, then checking status and the journal, that's why I stopped responding with my oldschool approach of manually checking configuration files. debcub showed a willingness to learn and following modern methods would serve him well in the future since he has committed to using Debian.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Thorny wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote: the stock Debian stable desktop now updates and upgrades the machine automatically OOTB with no user intervention, I think this is a good thing :)

Well, we'll have to disagree on that, I fear it encourages users not to learn.


I can accept that you have your opinion, I don't understand why you choose denegrate mine. (Rhetorical question.)

I have actually seen posts in this forum suggesting to not upgrade for various reasons, I think it likely that you have also, yet you didn't stomp in there and tell them their opinions were wrong. Were you having a "bad day".(Rhetorical question.)

Crowing about being a developer of a distro that aims to be an out-of-box experience is not relevant to the issue. However I am awed by your awesomeness.

Debian in the past never had the intention to be an out-of-box experience and has never been considered an OS for the inexperienced. It has been for users who want to learn and do learn and that is also the user that I most want to help.

Granted, Debian may change, perhaps is changing, and maybe even should change.

The fact that Debian is now gaining market share as a desktop distro may well be, in part or wholly, due to efforts of developers like yourself and the ease of installation and preconfiguring that Debian derivitives offer but that hasn't been, and I suspect still isn't, a main goal of the Debian Project. I am a dinosaur and I realise the world might change but I think I've been doing this long enough that I am entitled to an opinion, even if it differs from yours.

I did state that I am not using Stretch yet. I havent yet found anything in the Release Notes for Stretch detailing a change to automatic upgrades, maybe I just missed it, my Jessie doesn't automatically upgrade but maybe I forgot about changing something that stopped that because of my preference. I am aware of many posts in the Ubuntu Forums where the poster states, the system did an update (sic) and then "foo" stopped working, leaving them high and dry because clicking a button doesn't usually encourage one to examine what was going to happen so they have no clue where to start looking or what might have changed. This isn't about Ubuntu but that is where a lot of examples of clueless users exist. However, as I did state, I prefer having a bit more control and looking at what is to be upgraded and be able to choose when I let it happen, I wanted debcub to consider that too. I did mention that someone running a server 24/7 might want automatic updates and that has been possible even without a gui to handle it.

It seems to me that you bring up a straw man making it seem that I don't support keeping a system upgraded when in fact I am on record more than once in these forums suggesting that a poster upgrade to the latest point release, even when that isn't what they were asking about. Although I don't remember ever seeing you telling people who were running software that wasn't updated to the latest point release, to update it, when that was not the specific issue that you were dealing with in the thread. I also don't remember you ever chiming in and supporting when I have suggested updating to the latest point release.
So, to use your logic, does that mean that you are negligent in your duty as a helper, a prolific one, here by letting their systems become vulnerable? If they get hacked, is it your fault (in part, at least)? Personally, I don't think so.

And, why did you leave off the first part of what I wrote in your quote, you made it seem as if I was trying to send him back to ubuntu, when I was actually suggesting a choice, the "simplest" thing to do to have things the way he wanted them since he was already familiar with Ubuntu. I have to support Ubuntu for someone who will not change and I would not choose to send someone there.

Knowledgable users, ones who have learned what they need, in order to successfuly keep systems safe and running, know the importance of updating their software. And they know how to proceed when a gui interface fails. I don't see anything wrong with them learning that.

So, if I offended you, I am sorry. So very, very, sorry! But "You can't bring me down" ;-)

Whew! That was long!
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Re: [OT]Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' no

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2018-02-21 21:26

Thorny wrote:it is long

Yes indeed, please forgive me if I miss (or miss-read) anything, I'm quite tired :)

why you choose denegrate mine

That really was not my intention at all, sorry.

I have actually seen posts in this forum suggesting to not upgrade for various reasons, I think it likely that you have also, yet you didn't stomp in there and tell them their opinions were wrong

It's not my business to tell Debian users how to run their systems (although I am always happy to offer advice).

Crowing about being a developer of a distro

That also was not my intention, my contributions to BunsenLabs are very minor indeed and I would consider my primary role to be technical support rather than as a developer per se, and anyway BL already has some real developers handling all of the important stuff.

is not relevant to the issue

I was simply trying to explain my side of the discussion and illustrate why unattended-upgrades could be considered a positive feature, especially for the OP.

I am awed by your awesomeness

Don't be :mrgreen:

I am entitled to an opinion

Yes, of course you are.

I havent yet found anything in the Release Notes for Stretch detailing a change to automatic upgrades

I got the information from the Debian wiki:
Wiki wrote:As of Debian 9 (Stretch) both the unattended-upgrades and apt-listchanges packages are installed by default and upgrades are enabled with the GNOME desktop.

https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgra ... d_Upgrades

making it seem that I don't support keeping a system upgraded

That also was not my intention, how did I do that? I would like to avoid such confusion in future, if possible.

Although I don't remember ever seeing you telling people who were running software that wasn't updated to the latest point release, to update it, when that was not the specific issue that you were dealing with in the thread. I also don't remember you ever chiming in and supporting when I have suggested updating to the latest point release.
So, to use your logic, does that mean that you are negligent in your duty as a helper, a prolific one, here by letting their systems become vulnerable? If they get hacked, is it your fault (in part, at least)? Personally, I don't think so.

The situation here is quite different from that over at bunsenlabs.org and I feel no personal responsibility for the posters on these boards because they are not running a distribution in which I am named as a "developer".

why did you leave off the first part of what I wrote in your quote, you made it seem as if I was trying to send him back to ubuntu, when I was actually suggesting a choice, the "simplest" thing to do to have things the way he wanted them since he was already familiar with Ubuntu. I have to support Ubuntu for someone who will not change and I would not choose to send someone there.

Because full-quoting really annoys me so I like to crop as much as possible, that's all.

if I offended you

Ha! As if!

I would not think it is possible to insult me via this medium and I would be highly amused to be proved wrong :|
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Re: Why does 'Settings>Details>Check for Updates' not update

Postby Thorny » 2018-02-22 08:20

As is often the case, when intelligent people discuss things fully, they can reach understanding.
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