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When will MATE get into the repos!?!

Graphical Environments, Managers, Multimedia & Desktop questions.
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Mr James
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#16 Post by Mr James »

commodorejohn wrote: Not for me, and probably not for anybody else who takes the time to set up a consistent organizational hierarchy to their filesystem.
Yep, the first thing I found out when installing GNU/Linux was how ridiculous the use of Windows file names are (like "This ain't a ogg video.avi") and how completely bad it is to use them from a terminal. That called for the massive reorganizing I did and renaming of files to stuff like great-movie.avi - much more logical and easier to work with.
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vbrummond
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#17 Post by vbrummond »

commodorejohn wrote:"Use gnome-tweak-tool!" is the mantra of GNOME 3 devotees who can't manage to ignore the fact that it pisses a lot of people off, but don't want to admit that that might be because they're legitimately upset about the changes.
So far when I hear folk recommend it they are just trying to help, not justify the changes.
vbrummond wrote:Yeah, so? Just because some people like it doesn't invalidate the feelings of the people who don't like it.
I already said I DO acknowledge the problems with it.
That's not true at all. There were tons of things that I could change in GNOME 2 that I either couldn't in GNOME 3, or that were hidden away in tweak-tool because only *haughty sniff* power users *sneer* would ever want to change them.
No. Gnome 3 has annoyingly less amount options than Gnome 2 and I do not support that kind of mentality. I am saying Gnome 2 also has no options to configure it.
Oh God, do they seriously think "software rendering of a 3D accelerated desktop environment" is the same thing as a 2D desktop environment? Try using software OpenGL drivers with a 3D game sometime and see how that works out for you.
Can we please getting emotional about an interface. Stop assuming what I think to suit your argument. I mentioned a viable option for Gnome 3 running on unsupported graphics cards. Oh god.
Which is exactly what he said, yeah.
Yes. He said maintainers are not moving to Gnome 3 and I listed arguably the top distros and easily over 50 and perhaps even 70% of the Linux desktop market are moving to Gnome 3.
Maintainers are moving to GNOME 3 because it's being updated, not because people like it.
I won't argue semantics. I don't disagree.
The real question is how many users are moving to GNOME 3, and how many are jumping ship to something that doesn't treat them like idiot.
Any millions of people who use Fedora Gnome or Ubuntu 11.10+ are using Gnome 3.
Then you've been plugging your ears and going "LA LA LAAAA."
Now there is a valid argument. :mrgreen:
Lots of people have been complaining about GNOME 3, including myself and others in another thread you posted in, all the way up to Linus frigging Torvalds.
Linus Torvalds is just one user, and he complains about every new desktop that comes out. Do I think he is justified? Yes. He can think what he wants and honestly I also do not see the need to change anything so rashly. Gnome 3 is not really debated, just has a different way of launching windows that little geeks feel the need to complain about. I am only arguing because I am sick of hearing about it. Whining won't make it go away. Crying won't make it go away. The Gnome devs probably do not care. I don't care. I sat down and used Gnome 3 and I found it suitable for day to day use. Does it have flaws that annoying me? Yes. Does Gnome 2 have flaws that annoy me? Yes. I find myself equally at home on either and I know that if I was not I do have a choice to use something else.
You can pretend there's no dissent all you want, but that isn't going to change the fact that a lot of people don't like it.
I am still waiting to see proof that the vast majority of users hate Gnome 3. Silly rants on forums or by kernel developers is not it.
So your opinions on whether something is good or not outweigh not just 26 years of time-tested refinement and utter dominance, but also the express desires of any particular user? Good to know.
Here you go arguing semantics again. At least you acknowledge it is my opinion. Poking me and calling me meany isn't going to make me shut up.
Last edited by vbrummond on 2011-11-11 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
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shicy
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#18 Post by shicy »

i cannot believe that someone is emotionally tied to interface -.-
there's no more gnome 2, get over it -.-
at least, linux has a lot of desktop environments, window managers...try them ;)

sorry, but i had to say this. nothing personal.
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Roken
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#19 Post by Roken »

I have to be honest, but I've seen nothing yet in this thread that actually answers the original question, which is "When will MATE get into the repos?". I've seen much pontification from the lovers and haters of Gnome 3, but nothing that addresses the question. As has already been pointed out, we are free to use alternatives to gnome 3 if we don't like it. Mate is an alternative, which we are not free to use if it isn't offered in the first place.

PhilGil
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#20 Post by PhilGil »

Roken wrote:I have to be honest, but I've seen nothing yet in this thread that actually answers the original question, which is "When will MATE get into the repos?".
I think it was answered early on - probably never. Longer answer, no one has seen an intent-to-package statement from the Debian team. To get MATE into the repos it will have to go through the same process any other new project needs to go through. I don't know what that process is, but I'm sure the information is available somewhere on the Debian website.

commodorejohn
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#21 Post by commodorejohn »

vbrummond wrote:No. Gnome 3 has annoyingly less amount options than Gnome 2 and I do not support that kind of mentality. I am saying Gnome 2 also has no options to configure it.
So, what, GNOME 3 has less than no options? Okay, sure, we'll go with that.
vbrummond wrote:Can we please getting emotional about an interface. Stop assuming what I think to suit your argument. I mentioned a viable option for Gnome 3 running on unsupported graphics cards. Oh god.
Okay: Oh unemotional statement of doubt, I cannot believe that someone is mistaking a software-rendered version of a desktop designed for GPU acceleration for a desktop that is actually designed to work well on hardware not providing GPU acceleration. Happy? (Oh wait, no, that's an emotion.)
vbrummond wrote:Any millions of people who use Fedora Gnome or Ubuntu 11.10+ are using Gnome 3.
Any of the people (millions? Do we have some numbers?) who use Fedora Gnome or Ubuntu 11.10+ are getting GNOME 3 installed by default. That doesn't indicate whether they continue to use it, or install something else. I'm using Debian, that provides GNOME as the default desktop environment, and yet I'm not running GNOME (anymore) and I don't use Rhythmbox or Evolution or gedit or just about any of the default applications (and I didn't even when I was still using GNOME.) Even now I don't use many of the XFCE defaults - PCManFM instead of Thunar, medit, etc. etc. The question is how many people are actually using GNOME 3.
vbrummond wrote:Gnome 3 is not really debated, just has a different way of launching windows that little geeks feel the need to complain about.
I'm not sure I understand by what logic "many people don't like it, and are vocally expressing their dissent" equals "is not really debated." Should we schedule a town-hall meeting between GNOME Team and the Linux user community? That's pretty much what a lot of users have wanted from the start.
vbrummond wrote:
You can pretend there's no dissent all you want, but that isn't going to change the fact that a lot of people don't like it.
I am still waiting to see proof that the vast majority of users hate Gnome 3. Silly rants on forums or by kernel developers is not it.
Did I say the majority? Where did I say the majority? I said a lot of people, and if you need that backed up, here's an article with 1,000 comments from the unofficial GNOME user survey, the majority of which are negative. Whether that constitutes a majority of GNOME users in general, I don't know, but 500-700 unhappy people (out of a sampling of a larger survey) is not just a few cranks who can't handle change.

And you can dismiss "silly rants on forums" if you want, but the fact is these are GNOME users, (mostly, except for the few KDE cranks who just commented to flame GNOME as a whole,) who have found themselves pissed off by GNOME 3, many of them enough to switch to something else altogether. Their discontent is no less real for the fact that it's not in whatever theoretical medium would convince you that it's legitimate (a clap of thunder, and God himself descending from the heavens to intone, "Lo, it has come to pass that many people do not like GNOME 3"?) If you're making long-time users jump ship for the sake of following the flashy new trends in UI design, that's probably a bad sign.
vbrummond wrote:
CalcProgrammer1 wrote:my friend has blacklisted all GNOME updates on his Testing box because the new interface is an unnecessary change that screws up years of use for a new desktop metaphor that has not been established or tested well.
The desktop metaphor sucks.
vbrummond wrote:
So your opinions on whether something is good or not outweigh not just 26 years of time-tested refinement and utter dominance, but also the express desires of any particular user? Good to know.
Here you go arguing semantics again. At least you acknowledge it is my opinion. Poking me and calling me meany isn't going to make me shut up.
I'm not sure how this is "semantics." He specifically said that his friend is blocking this because he likes and wants the traditional desktop. Your reponse amounted to "well, you're wrong for wanting that." How is that useful discussion?

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dmhdlr
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#22 Post by dmhdlr »

Looking at KDE 4 recently, I wonder why people don't just switch to that. I've never been much of fan, but it's got all the elements GNOME 2.x had, and is customizable. In fact, I think I'm going to give it a kde-core netinstall a shot soon. I always like having a full DE installed just in case somebody else wants to use my computer, and GNOME 3.x doesn't seem to be ready, Unity gets annoying from time to time, and GNOME 2.x has always been vomitrocious.

I'm skeptical of Arch as much as the next Debian fanatic, but https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=53617&p=20 has plenty of shots sporting light, minimalistic KDE setups.
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PhilGil
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#23 Post by PhilGil »

Deckard wrote:Looking at KDE 4 recently, I wonder why people don't just switch to that.
Some will switch, but many users chose Gnome because they don't care for KDE. They won't switch to something they already don't like just because Gnome jumped the shark.

Personally, I find KDE so fiddly to configure that it makes me stabby. Additionaly, it runs like a pig on my old hardware regardless of how many "features" I turn off.

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shicy
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#24 Post by shicy »

i think that many gnome users will switch to xfce...but, i'm sad because those are gnome users, not linux users...if you remove them gnome, they will be lost...
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#25 Post by craigevil »

MATE will never ever be in the official Debian repo for the same reason KDE 3 is not in the repos. Because it is NO longer being maintained upstream! Gnome 2 is dead upstream, just like GTK1, kde3 and many other things. Get over it and move on.

The same thing happens in the Windows world, 95>98>2000>ME>Xp>Vista. Old DEs die it is the way of life.
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CalcProgrammer1
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#26 Post by CalcProgrammer1 »

Just FYI, I just compiled Mate from source using the directions posted on this Ubuntu Forums thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1858282

You have to compile everything individually, but it does compile successfully and works perfectly on up-to-date Testing. It installs alongside GNOME 3 so you can switch between interfaces easily (also Xfce). There are scripts to build .deb packages as well, all of them build except mate-file-manager (installs, but the .deb build script failed for me). There are some conflicts between Xfce and Mate (Thunar is being used by default, which may be from my Xfce settings) but Caja, the classic Nautilus, works fine from terminal.

I can post my .deb's but it's probably best just to build the latest version from Github. It works with Compiz and Emerald correctly as well.

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Mr James
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#27 Post by Mr James »

Or...just use Debian Squeeze.
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CalcProgrammer1
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#28 Post by CalcProgrammer1 »

I like using the latest and greatest. The Mate project shows that people don't want GNOME 2 to go away. I would rather keep up to date on Debian's core, plus I'm concerned about the future of the Linux desktop and want to make sure that the GNOME 2/Mate desktop will remain after Squeeze. It has some rough edges, but it is far from a stagnant project as may people seem to believe. The #mate IRC has considerable activity for a small project and the Mint team looks like they have taken interest in the project as well.

As much as I'd like to say "move on with it", GNOME 2 is the best "traditional" (as opposed to "tablet style" which GNOME 3 and Unity are trending towards) interface there is, and the "fallback" GNOME 3 mode is sorely lacking. It is similar to Windows in that it provides direct equivalents for "start menu," "task bar," and "system tray" items that Windows or Windows/Linux users (like me) are used to. I wish I could say fallback was a decent alternative, but the fact is that it isn't. It is missing tons of functionality and has screwy configurations (alt+right click? really?) that don't mesh well with the classic interface. As there is not yet a good tool for configuring the interface, I think the better option at this point is the option of GNOME 2.

I do apologize for my previous comments on resource usage. They were a bit off, so I just did an experiment comparing Mate, Xfce, G3-Fallback, and G3-Shell in memory usage with Xfwm4, Metacity, and Compiz window managers:

Code: Select all

Window Manager          MATE (GNOME 2)                XFCE4.8               GNOME 3 Fallback                GNOME 3 Shell
=====================================================================================================================================
Compiz+Emerald              272 MB                    275 MB                   258 MB                            Crash
Xfwm4 (Xfce4 WM)            236 MB                    232 MB                   217 MB                            268 MB (No effect)
Metacity (GNOME2)           238 MB                    233 MB                   217 MB                            Crash
GNOME Shell WM                                                                                                   260 MB
Test done with Compiz Fusion Icon and GNOME 3 System Monitor open, no other applications open. GNOME Shell does not support other window managers, but I tried to run them with Fusion Icon for consistency. This actually disproves my case of Fallback being bloated, but it is still lacking some settings that GNOME 2 has (the one annoying me most now is lack of individual font settings, as the menu bars are too large compared to GNOME 2 and waste screen area, but turning font size down turns ALL font sizes down, making some text unreadable). If they revert the Alt+right click thing and fix the fonts, I might switch to it, but I do like the System menu as it organizes system preference options out of the Applications menu.

vbrummond
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#29 Post by vbrummond »

I am done arguing over if Mate will replace Gnome. It wont. Good for it; If it does. My care of what environment I use or people like is very low. I use applications.
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Roken
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#30 Post by Roken »

And some of use use the filesystem. Some of us build packages, some of us want to get into the nuts and bolts of our system, some of us like to sit in a nice room even though we may gaze out of the window, and some of us want the freedom that Linux promises.

Just because you don't care that doesn't mean other's don't either. I hate to tell you, but the universe does not revolve around you.

vbrummond
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#31 Post by vbrummond »

Roken wrote:*snip pointless babble*
Now I have another *insert colourful adjective here* trying to argue with me. All I have bloody said was Mate will not supplant Gnome. Oh yeah and "Get over it."
Just because you don't care that doesn't mean other's don't either.
What does this even mean? Just because I don't care what environment I use; That other people actually do care what environment they use? I would ask you to explain the relevancy but I am just going to put down your futile argument before it gets started.

I have never said nor implied that users should not have choice. Even if one of those choices is Mate. What I have implied is that Mate has uncertain maintainers and motives, less original development, by design is a lack of progress, not included in any major distributions at all or by default. Now whether any of the before points are positive and negative or what my opinion of them might has not been and will not be brought up. I dont care.
I hate to tell you, but the universe does not revolve around you.
I am quite pleased to tell you that you make no sense. Also note you are arguing to my reply in which I stated I no longer wish to argue forcing me to argue more. And next of course predictable would be a reply of just don't argue. No. Quite replying to my posts with more and more artificial bull. Next are we doing to discuss our feelings? Perhaps about how unhappy we are that vbrummond has realistic insights on the position of Mate that disagree with our destructive optimism.
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Roken
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#32 Post by Roken »

Oh dear, how poorly children learn these days. As a recap, and ignoring the appalling grammar:
My care of what environment I use or people like is very low. I use applications.
Oh, and further ignoring the obvious lack of good grammar:
Now whether any of the before points are positive and negative or what my opinion of them might has not been and will not be brought up. I dont care.
If you don't care, then don't respond. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. If you have no pertinent view on a subject, though don't try to express one.

pendrachken
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#33 Post by pendrachken »

craigevil wrote:MATE will never ever be in the official Debian repo for the same reason KDE 3 is not in the repos. Because it is NO longer being maintained upstream! Gnome 2 is dead upstream, just like GTK1, kde3 and many other things. Get over it and move on.

The same thing happens in the Windows world, 95>98>2000>ME>Xp>Vista. Old DEs die it is the way of life.
Trinity isn't in the Repos either, yet they just had their first major update... meaning that at least SOME people are working on it yet. I would LOVE to use trinity since I used KDE 3.x forever ( at least seemingly ) and was what I was used to. The only problem is the butt ugly aliased icons; it's amazing how bad the look you have used for years looks after you get something with more "polish", well that and my utter laziness that prevents my from messing around with better looking icon sets...

Having said that KDE did push out 4.X _WAY_ too early. Pushing out a release just for the sake of eyecandy and "polish" when your core infrastructure isn't near what your users are used to is NEVER a good idea. I would have thought GNOME would have learned from KDEs mistakes, but apparently not.
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emariz
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#34 Post by emariz »

As of now, the Mate Project is nothing but Gnome 2.32+, which is actually newer than the version shipped in Squeeze. And because the Gnome 3 packages conflict with the names of the Gnome 2 ones, one could produce the same results by tracing Gnome 2 and renaming its packages.

The real question is, why would Debian keep these packages longer than Squeeze? Which will be kicking around until Q4 2013 or Q1 2014 (a year after the release of Wheezy). By that time, either Gnome 3 is usable enough and the Mate Project isn't necessary, or the Mate Project is mature enough to be installed in Debian, with or without the intervention of a Debian Developer.

I'll keep using Gnome 2 until focus-follows-mouse is addressed and a proper GSettigs Editor is released (instead of the Tweak Tool joke).
Deckard wrote:I'm pretty sure it's called Mate. Like yerba maté.
If that is true, then it's called "mate", without an orthographic accent, which means "dull, not bright" in Spanish. In South America, it also refers to the infusion, the herb or the vessel of the same name. "maté" is probably an English hypercorrection, as "maté" means "I killed" in Spanish. You could suggest the pun to the developers, though.

commodorejohn
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Re: When will MATE get into the repos!?!

#35 Post by commodorejohn »

vbrummond wrote:What I have implied is that Mate (...) by design is a lack of progress
That depends entirely on whether you consider GNOME 3 "progress."

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