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gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

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secipolla
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gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#1 Post by secipolla »

Just saying, it's not so corish anymore.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#2 Post by 4D696B65 »

meta-gnome2 (1:2.30+7) unstable; urgency=low

* Move a number of packages from gnome-desktop-environment to
gnome-core, which becomes the key package for tasksel. It will
allow the GNOME task to keep on fitting in a single CD.
* Make gnome-core architecture-dependent as a consequence.

-- Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> Sun, 05 Dec 2010 19:36:38 +0100
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/p ... /changelog

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#3 Post by kedaha »

I did an aptitude install gdm gnome-core yesterday but didn't get either.
DebianStable

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$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#4 Post by 4D696B65 »

kedaha wrote:I did an aptitude install gdm gnome-core yesterday but didn't get either.
You got it just before the change. It will effect you next time you upgrade.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#5 Post by emoric »

Yep, no longer gnome-core. I'm going to start calling it gnome-bloat.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#6 Post by 4D696B65 »

This is what I did in sid a few days ago before upgrading.

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apt-get remove gnome-core
aptitude keep-all
aptitude update
aptitude safe-upgrade
edit typo

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#7 Post by emariz »

What a stupid move! They should have created a new meta-package instead of ruining gnome-core. Why did they add gnome-disk-utility, Epiphany and gnome-screensaver, but left out Network Manager or gcalctool? When did Totem become a core application?

Anyway, for those interested, these are the dependencies of gnome-core 2.30+6 (the last version without "nice additions"):
eog
gedit
gnome-applets
gnome-control-center
gnome-icon-theme
gnome-menus
gnome-panel
gnome-power-manager
gnome-session
gnome-settings-daemon
gnome-terminal
gvfs
metacity
nautilus
yelp

I use Aptitude's graphic mode exclusively and I do not install recommendations automatically.
I reviewed all those packages and marked as manually installed those which were a dependency of gnome-core (if they were also a dependency or a recommendation of another package, I left them like that). Then, I purged the package gnome-core and reviewed the packages that it orphaned.
I also purged gnome-applets because I didn't use it (it was the "price" of using gnome-core).

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#8 Post by CountDuckula »

A definition of epiphany - any moment of great or sudden revelation.

Doing this to gnome-core might be considered an evolution but certainly not an epiphany :)

secipolla
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#9 Post by secipolla »

Well, a few days ago I just let it upgrade and found out I had epiphany and evolution installed (and gnome-screensaver too).
Some packages I had already installed manually so I didn't notice any change. I guess one needs to get to grips with aptitude.
I'll check this aptitude graphic mode to start with (up to now I'd only used aptitude to downgrade packages).

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#10 Post by CountDuckula »

Lets hope they don't decide to push gnome shell 3 as an update...

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#11 Post by 4D696B65 »

emariz wrote:What a stupid move! They should have created a new meta-package instead of ruining gnome-core..
agreed

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#12 Post by canci »

Well, I guess Gnome wants to give as full fletched a DE as possible. The times when Gnome just had an image viewer
and a file manager are sort of over. They learned from KDE's experience. I am foreseeing a tighter integration than
before, especially if Zeitgeist ever catches on in Gnome.

There are still ways though to have a much lighter Gnome, and even a somewhat lighter KDE for that matter.
And in Debian most of us build our systems individually, right?
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#13 Post by secipolla »

CountDuckula wrote:Lets hope they don't decide to push gnome shell 3 as an update...
When it's ready, I think you could count on that.

Regarding the gnome-core move, IDK if a new package like the former gnome-core will be created but as it is now, gnome-desktop-environment is more of a gnome-extras as it doesn't add that much.

Totem is a pretty basic package for a desktop environment like gnome-core is now. It's not heavy, has no bells and whistles and serves as a multimedia player.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#14 Post by canci »

gnome-shell will never be default in Debian, as it requires mutter, which requires working 3D drivers.
The fallback is always the classic Gnome 2.x desktop with Metacity and gnome-panel.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#15 Post by emariz »

emariz wrote:Anyway, for those interested, these are the dependencies of gnome-core 2.30+6 (the last version without "nice additions"):
eog
gedit
gnome-applets
gnome-control-center
gnome-icon-theme
gnome-menus
gnome-panel
gnome-power-manager
gnome-session
gnome-settings-daemon
gnome-terminal
gvfs
metacity
nautilus
yelp

I use Aptitude's graphic mode exclusively and I do not install recommendations automatically.
After checking the dependency chain of those packages with Aptitude, I can say that the following suffices to get the former gnome-core:
1. Install (+) eog, gedit, gnome-session, gnome-terminal and yelp.
2. Install gnome-applets, gnome-control-center and gnome-power-manager as recommendations (+M).

The other packages will be pulled as dependencies of them.
Of course, one can ignore the packages that she doesn't use, like gnome-applets in my case.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#16 Post by emariz »

secipolla wrote:I'll check this aptitude graphic mode to start with (up to now I'd only used aptitude to downgrade packages).

Regarding the gnome-core move, IDK if a new package like the former gnome-core will be created but as it is now, gnome-desktop-environment is more of a gnome-extras as it doesn't add that much.
Once you get used to the graphic mode menu and navigation, you'll see that you can do anything to the dependency chain with a pair of clicks (1).
I agree with you in that the current gnome-core makes gnome-desktop-environment way less useful.
1. http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=320585#p320585
canci wrote:There are still ways though to have a much lighter Gnome, and even a somewhat lighter KDE for that matter.
And in Debian most of us build our systems individually, right?

gnome-shell will never be default in Debian, as it requires mutter, which requires working 3D drivers.
The problem is not whether one build her system manually but that a system built from several pieces is more difficult to administrate than one built from a few ones. Meta-packages facilitate installation and administration.
I think that Gnome Shell could easily be the default in systems with Intel video drivers, which are open-source and provide 3D features.

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#17 Post by canci »

emariz wrote:The problem is not whether one build her system manually but that a system built from several pieces is more difficult to administrate than one built from a few ones. Meta-packages facilitate installation and administration.
Not really. All packages, once they are updated, come as an update to you. I didn't mean for you to compile Gnome. As for deleting packages automatically, just make a list of them and put them in a file, so you'll know what you installed later. If you install via Synaptic, there is a history of installed packages. There is also one on pure apt-get / aptitude, I just never used it.
emariz wrote: I think that Gnome Shell could easily be the default in systems with Intel video drivers, which are open-source and provide 3D features.
There will probably be a configure script which checks whether you have 3D and ask you whether you want gnome-shell or classic gnome.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#18 Post by emariz »

canci wrote:Not really. All packages, once they are updated, come as an update to you. I didn't mean for you to compile Gnome. As for deleting packages automatically, just make a list of them and put them in a file, so you'll know what you installed later. If you install via Synaptic, there is a history of installed packages. There is also one on pure apt-get / aptitude, I just never used it.
Sure, the packages will be updated, regardless of the existence of a meta-package (or a more general package), but because of the modularity of GNU/Linux, new features will most likely be added to a meta-package (or a more general package) than to individual packages. And there will always be new features.

For example, a couple of years ago, Gnome Baker was the preferred burning utility in Gnome, but it has since been replaced by the, supposedly, feature rich and modern Brasero. One can install and use Gnome Baker, but it is no longer developed and relies on technology that is now considered obsolete. The changes were applied to the general Gnome packages, but one wouldn't notice them if she built her system from individual pieces.
Such an example is what I meant by "system administration".

For those interested, here's the discussion (1) that led to the changes in gnome-core. The first installation CD needed a desktop environment, the former gnome-desktop-environment meta-package was too big and gnome-core paid the price.
I'll file a bug against gnome-core this weekend, because they should have created a new meta-package for the installation instead of affecting all systems built from gnome-core.
Another bug report will address the absence of Network Manager. It is an application way more important than a screen saver, a mail client or a disk utility.
1. http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/ ... 00010.html

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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#19 Post by canci »

emariz wrote:new features will most likely be added to a meta-package (or a more general package) than to individual packages. And there will always be new features.
There are no programmes inside a meta package, only a list of dependencies and maybe some config files. You could remove gnome-core now and you'd still retain all its dependencies if you didn't tell the package manager to remove the dependencies as well.
Please read up on what meta packages are:

http://bredsaal.dk/a-quick-guide-to-debian-metapackages
emariz wrote: For example, a couple of years ago, Gnome Baker was the preferred burning utility in Gnome, but it has since been replaced by the, supposedly, feature rich and modern Brasero. One can install and use Gnome Baker, but it is no longer developed and relies on technology that is now considered obsolete. The changes were applied to the general Gnome packages, but one wouldn't notice them if she built her system from individual pieces.
Such an example is what I meant by "system administration".
Yes, and a considerable amount of system administration will always be required.
There is a great chance that a consensus on the default applications will not be to
your liking. Filing a bug report could start a discussion on that, but if a majority thinks
evolution should be a default app, or that gnome-baker should go, then this will be the
case. gnome-baker was also abandoned upstream. It is open source though, so you could, with others who like it, still maintain it, or fork it, or whatever.

Pretending that a meta package keeps features from you is just a bit lame, as there are
many ways to find out about changes in Gnome, whether upstream or in Debian. It is
not a secret. Debian will probably never been that automated as to cater to every
individual need. You know what you like and you install that. Some people here already
gave alternatives as to how to install a less bloated Gnome.
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Re: gnome-core now comes with epiphany & evolution

#20 Post by emariz »

canci wrote:There are no programmes inside a meta package, only a list of dependencies and maybe some config files.
That's precisely the reason why it is easier to provide more features through a meta-package (or a general package) than through an individual package.
About a year ago, it was decided that gnome-core should cover power management features and thus depend on gnome-power-manager. How are these features remotely related to the other components of the meta-package? Both of us knew what to install and didn't care about the change, but we don't represent the average user. And that was just one new feature within a very small meta-package, imagine the difference that such changes represent within meta-packages that define complete desktop environments. Dependencies, recommendations, conflicts, equivalences... They all have a purpose, you know?

There are no meta-packages installed on my system, but I'm aware of their benefits. A common user enjoys (and suffers) the changes made to the meta-packages that cover her needs. If she didn't use meta-packages or general packages, she'd miss features targeted precisely at users like her.

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