"Free Cynwulf now" -- an analogy

[Ron_Holland]

Please don't misrepresent what people say just in order to take an antagonistic position. That's usually referred to as a strawman and, coming from someone here less than three days(!) who somehow has such strong opinions about the status of this board, it can easily be seen as trouble making aka trolling.

.....it can easily be seen as trouble making.....
Don't start it yourself, be a good example yourself

[Ron_Holland]

So. what happened two years ago, has that Nomko person any credit in it? I hardly doubt it: 2010-12-10 08:01, link: http://forums.debian.net/memberlist.php ... le&u=36268. he just a member for about 4 months? He really can't be held responsible for the downward trajectory of this forum. All the members here can be held responsible for it for the last 2 years, not just one person who joined recently.

I never said Nomko was responsible for the state that the forum has turned into. And this for the simple reason that I don't believe it. Don't try to pin view on me that I don't have.

You're absolutely right reading your post again. But the the appearance was created that you have provided him.
No hard feeling i hope!

[Soul Singin']

Anyway, the forum has been on a steady downward trajectory for about two years time. The stuff that has been going on the last weeks would have shocked my numb two years ago. Now, I hardly raise an eyebrow. It says a lot.

Remember Lavene and RickH? Those were the good, old days! Rick used to drive me insane. Looking back, I see how much knowledge he brought to the forum and how he kept the new members in line. Now I miss him. He gave Lavene fits, but she took it in stride. She never had to ban anyone or take "administrative action," because everyone respected her.

As for the analogy, well, I guess a beef with the boss could get you fired and a beef with the administration could get you banned. A boss could always find another employee and a forum could always find other members. But eventually word gets around that the company is not a very attractive workplace and the boss finds it hard to attract competent people and the one that do work there are discontent. Maybe there is an analogy here too?

I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet.
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[Ron_Holland]

I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet.

And you shouldn't! There's always hope that it will go better, but that also depends on you and me and the other members. This kind of topics aren't very helpful to gain back the good atmosphere there was in the past.

So, forget what happened, don't look back and don't hold any grunge towards members, even too those whom you don't like (anymore). Don't discus any more about what happened but focus on the future of this forum which only can exist when everybody is willing to forget the past, be forgiving and be helpful to make the best out of this forum.

But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.


I also want to apologize to all of you if one of my postings looked a bit like i was trying to start an uproar here.

[mojoman]

Remember Lavene and RickH? Those were the good, old days! Rick used to drive me insane. Looking back, I see how much knowledge he brought to the forum and how he kept the new members in line. Now I miss him. He gave Lavene fits, but she took it in stride. She never had to ban anyone or take "administrative action," because everyone respected her.

Lavene was great. And while we're speaking of old staff, so was Harold. I can think of others too. But the style of moderation has changed. A lot of us, who have been members for more the three days, know this.

I see the regrettable conclusion in your extension to my analogy, but I'm not going to put it into words because I do not want to give up on this forum yet.

I too haven't given up on it. Christ, it's still my home page on iceweasel so I automatically log in every day. Still, I hardly post at all and don't browse as much because this is not as good a forum as it used to be.

[julian67]

Please don't misrepresent what people say just in order to take an antagonistic position. That's usually referred to as a strawman and, coming from someone here less than three days(!) who somehow has such strong opinions about the status of this board, it can easily be seen as trouble making aka trolling.

.....it can easily be seen as trouble making.....
Don't start it yourself, be a good example yourself

That's easy, and here is the example: I'm not attempting to misrepresent you, or to set up strawmen.

And when you get found out being disingenuous and deliberately provocative then posting a snide remark and a smiley doesn't justify or undo it.

@Soul Singin' I do agree that Lavene was a Grade A+ admin. What a different place this was when most of the admins and mods actually enjoyed the company of the members, participated on the board and had a sense of humour and proportion. But I never can join in with all this rickh nostalgia. He was often really unpleasant to new members just because they were new (as far as I could tell) so he was bound to occasionally squash someone who kind of asked for it, but he also antagonised and upset a lot of people for no good reason.

[AMLJ]

And now i hope there's an admin who's that smart to close this thread otherwise this will turn into some fighting topic who's right or wrong.

Here, we can take care of our selves, and we are smart enough to know what to do, although with the things which have happened recently, I think the mods and admins think the same as you...
This is Debian forum, not butnut... No reason to treat us like 4-year-olds.

As long as nomko, and just one other stupid person whose name I don't want to mention, don't come here, this discussion is safe...

[julian67]

But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.

First of all, stop telling people what they should or should not be discussing. Secondly this is not about one event or two events it's about the way things have evolved over a longer period of time, leading to a situation that has seen numerous longstanding members express a lot of disatisfaction or even quit participating altogether. This has taken place over a much longer than the two and a half days you've been around, so you are in no position to tell others what they ought to be discussing, and your posts show you don't even get this simple point.

[Ron_Holland]

But stop arguing about stuff which happened and can't be turned back.

First of all, stop telling people what they should or should not be discussing. Secondly this is not about one event or two events it's about the way things have evolved over a longer period of time, leading to a situation that has seen numerous longstanding members express a lot of disatisfaction or even quit participating altogether. This has taken place over a much longer than the two and a half days you've been around, so you are in no position to tell others what they ought to be discussing, and your posts show you don't even get this simple point.

First of all, i wasn't telling anybody what to do.
Second of all, if you had read my whole posting, you should have understand that one sentence which, to my regret, you didn't.

[Soul Singin']

But I never can join in with all this rickh nostalgia. He was often really unpleasant to new members just because they were new (as far as I could tell) so he was bound to occasionally squash someone who kind of asked for it, but he also antagonised and upset a lot of people for no good reason.

Including me!

What you say is true. I'll refrain from discussing him further.
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[Ron_Holland]

I'll refrain from discussing him further.

Same goes for me.
A certain person doesn't want to understand my opinion and is trying to provoce me.
I rather avoid that.

To all, again my sincere apologies if my posting looked like a bit of trouble making.

[mojoman]

What a different place this was when most of the admins and mods actually enjoyed the company of the members, participated on the board and had a sense of humour and proportion.

I think this is half the heart of the matter (though some mods and admins still are very much part of the community and not just policing it). The other half of the heart of the matter is the change that was sought in the atmosphere of the forum, in order to make it more friendly towards newcomers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the energy spent on this has involved so much heavy-handed moderation, tut-tut-ing and policing of the member that it actually made the place more hostile and intolerant. Talk about unintended consequences.

edited for clarity

[julian67]

I agree. Somehow being more friendly to newcomers has been implemented as "let new members be as rude, antagonistic and provocative as they like (repeatedly). Meanwhile be harsh and intolerant towards the existing members." Great work. I wonder if anyone ever checked that new members even get better advice?

btw I wasn't criticising all the current mods or admins because several put an awful lot of time and goodwill into this place. But in any place like this the mood is ultimately set by the people who run it, who set policy and who are in the position to encourage some people/behaviour and sanction/disallow other people/behaviour. That isn't exactly working out. The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.

[traveler]

The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.

One of the nobles stated he would request cynwulf's punishment be withdrawn, then apparently did not follow through. There's nothing wrong with expecting "staff" to do what they say they are going to do. There seems to be no accountability- and now some of the peasantry are discontent.

Edit: This isn't just about cynwulf. It's been brewing for a long time now, cynwulf's ban is just the latest episode.

[mojoman]

I agree. Somehow being more friendly to newcomers has been implemented as "let new members be as rude, antagonistic and provocative as they like (repeatedly). Meanwhile be harsh and intolerant towards the existing members."

The relationship changed from us being on reasonable and friendly terms with those in the position to make the place work, to now us being the bloody peasants who are required to shut up and mind our own damn business.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I also think there is a direct causal connection here. The increasing number of one-liners that lay down the law is hammering this point home with crystal clarity.

[saulgoode]

I agree. Somehow being more friendly to newcomers has been implemented as "let new members be as rude, antagonistic and provocative as they like (repeatedly). Meanwhile be harsh and intolerant towards the existing members." Great work.

You were (repeatedly) aware of "rude, antagonistic and provocative" behavior taking place which you deemed detrimental to the forums ... and yet you never reported it? Well, at least you're not alone.

Only two posts by user nomko have been reported since his return from a ban at the start of this year. Both those posts appeared in a thread explicitly directed at nomko, and nomko's initial responses in that thread were to raise reasonable and gently phrased objections to the topic. I responded to those two reports by removing the thread and sending a PM advising the "existing member" that I considered his post ill-advised and suggesting that an apology was in order. Both those reports came from the same user, and I thank that user for taking the time to submit those reports.

No other posts by user nomko were ever reported since his return to the forums.

Furthermore, in scanning nomko's recent posting history, I found many posts with which I disagreed, some posts which I thought poorly worded, and some inappropriate posts he made in response to direct personal attacks. I do not consider the first two to be actionable offenses; and I would not consider it conscionable to act on the latter without doing likewise to those who initiated the attacks in the first place (regardless whether they happened to be around when jeroen ran these forums on a Pentium under his desk).

So where are these posts wherein nomko, unprovoked, insulted or directly antagonized other members of these forums? And if they exist, why did nobody report them to the staff? If anyone wishes to discuss the principles of justice and equity in the administration of these forums, a good start would be to address those two questions.

[llivv]

By now, most regular members of these forums have read the post in which Cynwulf argues with SaulGoode's decision to ban him. Many forum members have chosen to support Cynwulf by linking to that post in their signatures.

On the issue of his banishment, I am neutral. I do not have any strong feelings one way or the other. But an analogy may be useful, particularly to younger forum members who have not entered the workforce yet.

On the job, provocateurs like Nomko usually get a slap on the wrist for their bad behavior, while the people who respond to the provocation tend to receive stronger punishments. That seems unfair to me. In my opinion, provocation is worse than reaction. Nonetheless, it is a fact of life. People who respond tend to be punished more harshly.

Continuing the analogy ... If your boss decides to punish you, arguing with your boss in public will get you fired. It does not matter how wrong your boss is. It does not matter how much your co-workers support you. It does not matter how talented you are. Arguing with your boss in public will get you fired.

So I see why Cynwulf will not be returning any time soon.

As I mentioned, I am neutral on the issue of his banishment. I'm not trying to take sides. I'm just trying to find a useful lesson to learn from this sad story.
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there is more going on here behind the scenes than is ever going to be expressed in public...
keep your eyes open and your spirit free.....

[traveler]

This thread has turned into just another flame war. Personal attacks all over as well. As such I am locking the thread.

Nokimo, if you continue to intentionally incite flame wars, your next ban will be a permanent one instead of just two weeks.

Enjoy the peace while it lasts here.

At least one mod seems to have noticed the trend.
Any word on your request to lift cyn's ban?

[Mez]

Cynwulf will be freed when his ban is automatically lifted (which I believe is in about 10 days time, without actually working it out)

However, this thread is now closed.