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How would you improve this forum?

Code of conduct, suggestions, and information on forums.debian.net.
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nadir
Posts: 5961
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#21 Post by nadir »

I got no idea of courts, letters and what not, and i don't care about it.
You have been banned, and users have helped you to still be a member of the board.
Now you ask for more banning.
That is strange: If that would have been the case in the past you wouldn't be a member right now.

In my humble it was very friendly and human by Lavene and Ana to give you a further chance. I am not sure if the same would happen today.
At that time no user has been banned ever. Only you. Now the staff has changed, and it happens regulary (be it good or bad, but it's a matter of fact)
Funny enough now you ask for more bannings, and so shall it be. None of my business.

Good for you that all your posts from that time have been deleted...
"I am not fine with it, so there is nothing for me to do but stand aside." M.D.

cynwulf

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#22 Post by cynwulf »

edbarx wrote:[blah blah blah]
I remember this incident well Ed and I think you're avoiding the main issue here - which is that you were banned, members stood up for you and you were unbanned...

And now you're here a few years later calling for more bans...

Short memory?

:roll:

hhh
Posts: 211
Joined: 2010-07-07 04:50

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#23 Post by hhh »

Mez wrote:What would you do to improve this forum?
Can't you see what's wrong yourself? Here's an embarrassing example...
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=78275

How the hell did that flame-fest go unchecked? It should have been locked right after craigevil's response. What do you think a newcomer's impression of that and other completely rude threads in this forum would be? Maybe that this forum caters to the old bitter smart-asses haunting this place thinking they're clever and not so much to them, a wide-eyed Debian novice?

lukas
Posts: 87
Joined: 2011-07-30 15:43

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#24 Post by lukas »

hhh wrote:
Mez wrote:What would you do to improve this forum?
Can't you see what's wrong yourself? Here's an embarrassing example...
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=78275

How the hell did that flame-fest go unchecked? It should have been locked right after craigevil's response. What do you think a newcomer's impression of that and other completely rude threads in this forum would be? Maybe that this forum caters to the old bitter smart-asses haunting this place thinking they're clever and not so much to them, a wide-eyed Debian novice?
+1

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#25 Post by Randicus »

hhh wrote:
Mez wrote:What would you do to improve this forum?
Can't you see what's wrong yourself? Here's an embarrassing example...
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=78275

How the hell did that flame-fest go unchecked?
That thread is neither the problem nor part of the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. The thread was the result of a bad decision, in which a member was banned for a trivial reason, while worse offenders are not censured in any way. The "embarrassing" thread was the result of inconsistent enforcement of forum rules. How to improve the forum? Answer; Either enforce the rules consistently or eliminate the rules.

cynwulf

Improve forum W/O tackling trolls spam and not criticisng st

#26 Post by cynwulf »

It's now well over one month later... but this pointless thread was effectively a closed book from the second it was opened and here's why:
Mez wrote:What would you do to improve this forum?

Note: Saying "Get rid of Spam" or "Get rid of Trolls" isn't going to make any difference - if we could - we'd have done so - but we fight the long fight.
So:

- Solving the spam problem is out. So it's "how to improve the forum but spam is off the agenda" (but still on the menu). There are over 1000 registered spambot accounts on this board.

- Attacking the troll problem is out. The staff seemingly cannot or will not control these pathetic multiple account spammers, but will happily ban the likes of sossego.

- "we fight the long fight" - so it would seem mate - you turn up here about once per year, blab a lot of useless rhetoric and then vanish again, so at this rate "the long fight" does indeed seem like a very apt description...

Mez wrote:Also, this is not an opportunity to start a flame war
It's generally the trolls who start the flame wars... but as you're unwilling/unable to do anything about them...
Mez wrote: - or to raise complaints about staff :)
So staff are beyond reproach... you know I'm glad you set these rules out here because now I can get down to business and start discussing how to improve the forum... Under the current circumstances, this is how I would improve it:

1) Appoint a new administration.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#27 Post by Randicus »

Starting this thread is a technique borrowed from Western "democratic" governments. Make an elaborate show of asking the people what they think, then ignoring what is said. Sleight-of-hand to trick the people into believing the government is listening to them.
As cynwulf pointed out, a two-page thread with many suggestions and complaints, but not a single post from an administrator. It would appear that the original post was simply submitted and forgotten. I wish I was wrong, but ...
cynwulf wrote:Under the current circumstances, this is how I would improve it:

1) Appoint a new administration.
Agreed.
All in favour, say Yea.

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iceman
Posts: 354
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Location: USA

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#28 Post by iceman »

Improve this forum? Simple, give away a free Operating system for anyone that signs up. It has to be stable, free and the user must be able to modify if they so choose. Also having a huge repository of software for that free OS would be great... Oh wait, ok. I got it.

Offer free coffee and cookies, no I don't mean java and browser cookies. Or offer free beer...

Ok, really. I have no useful tips to improve this forum. I think it is great as is.

Edit: I read the thread replies after I posted my reply to the original question. To deal with bans it is simple. Keep current administrators as is and set up a review panel for banned members to appeal to. This panel must NOT include anyone with banning power.

There you go. Problem solved. While nothing is ever going to be 100%, we are human and sometimes mistakes happen, this would, imo, be the best solution.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
---------
Thinking is over rated. Let the Government do it for you.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#29 Post by Randicus »

How could it be done, when the people with the power to set up such a panel do not care about the forum and do not have any interest in managing it?

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iceman
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#30 Post by iceman »

Randicus wrote:How could it be done, when the people with the power to set up such a panel do not care about the forum and do not have any interest in managing it?
I have faith in the Debian community. Anything can be done :D
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
---------
Thinking is over rated. Let the Government do it for you.

JohnDeere730
Posts: 94
Joined: 2011-09-08 03:24

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#31 Post by JohnDeere730 »

iceman wrote: I have faith in the Debian community. Anything can be done :D
Ah, me boy...your trusting soul is expressed through your dewy-eyed innocence; it brings a tear to me wizened old eye and a lump to me wrinkled throat. :lol:
I have faith in the Debian User community; I also have faith in the Debian developers to create a very fine OS. I have absolutely no faith, however, in the current administration's desire to actually improve anything here; especially since the man who started this delightful little exercise in futility hasn't even logged in in almost a month. This whole thread has no more effect on the administration of this board than the bleating of the sheep has on the shepherd's decision to roast one for his dinner.

confuseling
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2009-10-21 01:03

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#32 Post by confuseling »

Oh really, so much bloody drama again.

If you want to compare this here to a totalitarian regime, why in hells name haven't you been summarily banned for speaking out?

This forum doesn't work, in various ways, for various reasons. It still works, in various ways, for various people who use it. Complaining about how it doesn't work is either productive, if it changes something, or a contribution to the gradual, depressing ruin for the rest of us, if it doesn't.

Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I want to just write "Start your own ******* forum, and stop whinging about it" to all its critics. I have my criticisms - don't get me wrong. But it clearly isn't a democracy, and it isn't pretending to be, so what the hell is the point in hanging around and complaining? I am prepared to tolerate the people who have been here for years, and are hoping for a return to glory: I think they're misguided, because I don't think it will happen, but I accept their right to complain. For the rest of you, either you want to make this forum work, BY THE TERMS IN WHICH IT IS CLEARLY, STATED OR IMPLIED, SET OUT, or you don't.

The net is vast. Make a bloody decision.
The Forum's search box is terrible. Use site specific search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... terms+here

Randicus
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#33 Post by Randicus »

The forum is neither totalitarian nor, Heaven forbid, a democracy. The problem is, there is no system. There are rules, but they are not enforced, usually. The administrators are not only absent, but do not care about the forum they are supposed to be in charge of. That is what half of the complaints in this thread are about. The other half are about the wrong people being banned.
confuseling wrote:Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I want to just write "Start your own ******* forum, and stop whinging about it" to all its critics.
That has already been done.

The reason people are complaining and making suggestions for change is that many forum members want to help the forum, or dare we say, save the forum. If accept the crappy situation or leave is the only option, the future is not bright.

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nadir
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#34 Post by nadir »

THE TERMS IN WHICH IT IS CLEARLY, STATED OR IMPLIED, SET OUT,
I AM NOT SURE WHICH RULES YOU MEAN; BECAUSE THERE ARE SEVERAL VERSIONS; ALL OVER THE PLACE. ONE CAN PICK WHATEVER ONE WANTS, WHICH IS WORSE THAN NO RULES AT ALL (WE DO WHAT WE WANT ANYWAY). THEY ARE ANYTHING BUT CLEARLY STATED.
WAS THAT LOUD ENOUGH FOR YOU?


Above saulgode, who is calm and liberal and all, made a good proposal. That has been ignored too. Just saying.
"I am not fine with it, so there is nothing for me to do but stand aside." M.D.

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nadir
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#35 Post by nadir »

JohnDeere730 wrote:
iceman wrote: I have faith in the Debian community. Anything can be done :D
Ah, me boy...your trusting soul is expressed through your dewy-eyed innocence; it brings a tear to me wizened old eye and a lump to me wrinkled throat. :lol:
I have faith in the Debian User community; I also have faith in the Debian developers to create a very fine OS. I have absolutely no faith, however, in the current administration's desire to actually improve anything here; especially since the man who started this delightful little exercise in futility hasn't even logged in in almost a month. This whole thread has no more effect on the administration of this board than the bleating of the sheep has on the shepherd's decision to roast one for his dinner.
That is good.
"I am not fine with it, so there is nothing for me to do but stand aside." M.D.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#36 Post by Randicus »

confuseling wrote:... BY THE TERMS IN WHICH IT IS CLEARLY, STATED OR IMPLIED, SET OUT ...
Which is the case? Clearly stated or implied?
Guidelines are either explicit or implicit. They cannot be both.
Rules must be clearly stated, but they are pointless if ignored.

confuseling
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2009-10-21 01:03

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#37 Post by confuseling »

You agree that “Debian User Forums” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit.
From the signing up blurb, unambiguous. Probably said much the same thing when you signed up years ago - forums may have changed, but lawyers haven't. Sorry, this isn't your anarchist / Marxist / libertarian / whatever the **** utopia. You have to be pragmatic if the staff don't care or there aren't enough of them - they have arbitrary rule. I'll happily sign up to something better if you manage to arrange it, but I've not seen it yet. We make do with what we have, and the constant barrage of criticism is changing absolutely nothing, and, knowing something about human nature, probably driving moderators who initially want to contribute to stop doing so.

-edit-

That's the stated bit. The implied bit: well, you've been here for a bit. Do you really need me to explain it? They're understaffed, and get abused for more or less whatever they do. So they don't moderate much, and make no effort to explain their decisions when they do. What would you do?
The Forum's search box is terrible. Use site specific search, e.g.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... terms+here

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iceman
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Re: How would you improve this forum?

#38 Post by iceman »

This is my last post for this thread. I am removing this thread from my subscriptions. I see where this is and where it is going. Reminds me a bit of Ubuntu forums or the Puppy forums.

I am just grateful for a place that is Debian specific.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
---------
Thinking is over rated. Let the Government do it for you.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#39 Post by Randicus »

confuseling wrote:The net is vast. Make a bloody decision.
Go where? As icemen pointed out:
iceman wrote:I am just grateful for a place that is Debian specific.
Therein lies a problem. Where can people go for Debian-specific answers?
DFN? - There are already too few knowledgeable people here. What are there, about half a dozen members who can answer the tough questions? If/When they leave because of the mess, then what?
LQ? - There are a few knowledgeable people there, but fewer than here.
LF? - At the moment there are no Debian gurus there.
DebianHELP? - Slightly moribund.
askDebian? - Is not organised into a forum structure and appears to be as active as DebianHELP.
DUF? - Has knowledgeable members, but is not a hand-holding and spoon-feeding forum, which would make it unpalatable to many DFN members.
If the knowledgeable people are to remain, changes must be made. If DFN looses the remaining talent, the forum would be useless.

Which brings us to:
confuseling wrote:[They're understaffed, and get abused for more or less whatever they do. So they don't moderate much, and make no effort to explain their decisions when they do.
Very good observation. It indicates a problem, does it not?
Understaffed - Solution; increase staff size.
Abused - Because rules are enforced inconsistently. Solution; consistent and fair moderation. Consistency is the key. Whether the rules are ignored, lightly enforced or strictly enforced, do it all the time. And the worst offenders should be punished before the least offenders, not the other way around.
Overall, craigevil does a good job. He gives members a long lease. But he is human and will make bad decisions occasionally. That is where having active administrators would be useful.
What would you do?
I would not volunteer to be a moderator on a forum where the administrators do not give a rat's ass about the forum.

JohnDeere730
Posts: 94
Joined: 2011-09-08 03:24

Re: How would you improve this forum?

#40 Post by JohnDeere730 »

@Confuseling....Do you completely miss the irony of the fact that the person who started this thread is the one who has also been absent for 3 weeks, and has yet to acknowledge even Saulgood's most reasonable suggestion? If the administration does not even acknowledge the staff's suggestions, that should give you a pretty good idea of the utter disingenuousness of starting a trite "How would you improve this forum?" thread. 'Nuff said.

Speaking for only myself, I have no wish for this board to fail. Ever. I also do not see duf.org as being in any way a direct competitor to this board; both boards have very different philosophies, and as such are naturally going to attract different personalities than are here...that is the whole purpose; the 'net is plenty big for everyone. I don't see any conflict in wishing to belong to both boards, so don't tell me to "go away"; I have as much right, or lack of it, as anyone to post here.

I'll reiterate what I said in another post: If Mez and the other mostly absent administrators are uninterested in actually running the board, and the other Debian developers are even less interested, that's fine....there is no law that says they have to be, but for heaven's sake, change the rules a bit and elevate someone who is sufficiently motivated and knowledgeable to competently and actively administer the board. There are quite a few fine folks here who would do a fine job, IMO. I now know from personal experience that people with only moderator permissions absolutely cannot effectively run a phpBB forum. That they even try at all is a sterling endorsement of their character.....just think what they could do with full admin permissions?

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