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What is Linux becoming?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
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tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#21 Post by tomazzi »

edbarx wrote:Unlike computers, human beings are far too complicated...
look, Edbarx, it's not only You who have problems.
My youngest son has a genetic sickness (extremely rare PEHO syndrome) - he is 3 years old and there's no hope that he will funcion normally ever in his life. Im not crying, I'm fighiting - with doctors and with the reality. Please don't give up just because You have a suspiction of cancer - live young, die free.
Don't give up Your ideals...
Odi profanum vulgus

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edbarx
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

#22 Post by edbarx »

Thanks for posting about Refracta.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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buntunub
Posts: 591
Joined: 2011-02-11 05:23

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#23 Post by buntunub »

Edbarx. Tomazzi did an OK job at trying to explain things a tad. It is not about Systemd so much as it is about Debians increasingly dictatorial, VERY undemocratic processes in choosing Systemd as the soon to be (we all can see the writing on the wall here) ONLY choice. There was no consultation with the Debian Users, and, more worrying still, the DDs were unable to even reach a consensus to get a GR done on this. Abject disregard for Debian users is now the new norm. Making decisions to put experimental software in Stable releases. Systemd was merely the straw that crushed the Camels back, not just broke it, but destroyed any semblance of trust between the Debian leadership and the userbase forever. This distro is done. Thankfully, there are people who love Debian enough to try to save her, but I wonder if its too little, too late? What I can tell you is that this Distro will never be the same again, and may not even survive long into the future. Crying shame, and the blame is 150% on each and every Debian Developer and Contributor. Too spineless to stand against the machine; too timid to give a sh*t enough to get the initial GR off the ground.

So that is Debians fate. Now on to Systemd. One could say - see above. Systemd is the end of Linux and the Free Software movement. For all the reasons oh so many big names in the Linux world have bent over backwards trying to point out. RMS is an absentee landlord. The new movement is in your hands Edbarx. Yours and all those who wish to save the ideals of what we all once loved.

I found a pic of Poetering wearing a T-shirt that says, "Open Source Tea Party". Let me tell you this. He has no idea about the Tea Party or what it stands for. If he wants a Tea Party movement in Linux, he is solely responsible for making that happen - against him. That movement is all about ridding the common man from the tyranny of big govt. In his case, the new Open Source Tea Party is all about ridding the common Linux user from Poetering and Systemd. This movement is growing larger and more vocal daily.

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fleabus
Posts: 98
Joined: 2013-08-28 18:36
Location: Winchester, VA, USA

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#24 Post by fleabus »

[removedby::fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 02:11, edited 20 times in total.
Lenovo Legion 5-15IMH05 32GB Ram, 2TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe SSD

twoflowers

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#25 Post by twoflowers »

A word on "faster booting": My quadcore dektop takes ~ 5 seconds from power up to grub. And wheezy takes 20 seconds from there to a full running TDE. The idential disk image running on my old T60 takes ~ 5 seconds to grub and then 5 seconds to TDE. Why? Well, it uses a SSD insted of a HD. What could I possibly gain by systemd?

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edbarx
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

#26 Post by edbarx »

A faster boot process only meaningfully applies to when MS Windows booted in enough time for anyone to boil water, make a cup of tea, have some biscuits, drink it and forget it altogether! This is cheap manipulative promotional jargon aimed at attracting a larger clientele.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

twoflowers

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#27 Post by twoflowers »

debianxfce wrote:me me me, not everyone has quad core cpu or ssd. You cry here that debian is universal os and then booting time improvment is not important for example for her: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=118303
Sorry, you did not get my posting: T60 is 1.5 GHz C2D and boots faster than my desktop with a quad X3360 @ 2.83GHz. My servers take several minutes from power-on to grub! You cannot argue that issues away with "systemd is booting faster", 'caus the supposed gain is irrelevant. It's the hardware that slows you down.

twoflowers

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#28 Post by twoflowers »

Yes, that's the essence of it. BTW, TDE fits on a CD, too, here's the download of the life-CD: http://exegnulinux.net/downloads/wheezy ... ux_4.2.iso - just can't wait to get it runnung on BSD, but it's on it's way

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fleabus
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

#29 Post by fleabus »

Since I have no hardware newer than five years, I tend to explore lighter options. TDE is growing on me. In addition to exe, I also tried q4os, which is very stripped down:

http://q4os.org/
http://q4os.org/downloads.html

Q4OS - 64bit / x64 ... 315 MBytes
http://q4os.org/downloads/q4os-0.5.19-x64.iso

Q4OS - 32bit / i386 ... 337 MBytes
http://q4os.org/downloads/q4os-0.5.19-i386.iso

It's still in beta, but the beta worked very well on my machines. Looks promising.

These days MX-14, SolydX Business Edition, and Salix are my "main drivers".
The effort being put into exe, q4os, and refracta are keeping hope alive in the remaining neuron.

The problem with any Debian based solution is keeping the mudball away. Agree with edbarx/tomazzi that it's early times. If Debian-based solutions are going to be cooked up they'll need time to come to fruition. Sorry all, for my blathering and ranting. I surprised myself. Having seen this kind of thing in the software world so many times, the feeling is cynicism followed by apathy, then lethargy, at which point it becomes dangerous to the psyche and one must hunt for some kind of solution. I haven't felt this strongly about something in many years. I fell in love with a Debian that was already on its way out by the time I came into the picture. I have no business complaining, indeed saying anything at all. It's not my distro.
Lenovo Legion 5-15IMH05 32GB Ram, 2TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe SSD

k e i t h
Posts: 16
Joined: 2014-12-30 03:49

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#30 Post by k e i t h »

golinux wrote:Remember the free edX course that was offered by the Linux Foundation at the end of the summer? I've been following the comments and find ones similar to these increasing and very disturbing.
Mint is more like Windows by default, where the minimize, maximize and close options are in the top right hand corner. Ubuntu puts them on the top taskbar like MacOS(perhaps this is configurable).

I installed Mint. It looks nice and easy to use. Its similar to windows. Thanku :)

I tried both using bootable USB stick. As a windows user I liked Mint more. Thanx :)

I tried both. Mint looks same like windows.. Easy to use and it looks nice... I like it :)
'buntu/Mint are getting lots of new fanbois onboard. And since Gnome is the default DE, that will be the DE of choice for a new generation of Windows users coming to Linux because it's soooo cool looking like Windoze. Quite a coup considering the imminent systemd/gnome lock-down. These sheeple will never know the freedom that Debian (and Linux) once offered. They won't care because 'it looks and works like Windoze shiny GUI and all. Disgusting.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would say this Linux promotion has been engineered to herd as many sheeple as possible into the Linux of the future at a critical time. Before long the knowledge of 'old school Linux' will be lost in history. Devolution in action . . .
I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is, tbh i can"t believe i was thinking of buying windows 8. I should of tried this OS long ago like my friends have been telling me, i should of listened. only bad thing now is i can"t get off the computer :lol:

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buntunub
Posts: 591
Joined: 2011-02-11 05:23

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#31 Post by buntunub »

The only problem with Windows 8 is that its Windows 8. Windows 7 is much better. Even Jessie GNOME is better than Windows 8, and that says alot.

schnuller
Posts: 386
Joined: 2014-11-25 05:05

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#32 Post by schnuller »

k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is
At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.

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buntunub
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Joined: 2011-02-11 05:23

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#33 Post by buntunub »

schnuller wrote:
k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is
At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.
Its quite easy to get a pirated copy of WIndows. It is virus resistant if you unplug the ethernet cable and take out the wireless. WIndows 7 is quite stable. So there you go. A free safe Windows!

twoflowers

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#34 Post by twoflowers »

There should be <sarcasm>-tags in the forum :mrgreen:

schnuller
Posts: 386
Joined: 2014-11-25 05:05

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#35 Post by schnuller »

buntunub wrote:
schnuller wrote:
k e i t h wrote: I like the look and feel of debian just the way it is
At least an argument not heard often.
I use Windows cause it's for free, virus-resistent and stable as a rock, btw.
Its quite easy to get a pirated copy of WIndows. It is virus resistant if you unplug the ethernet cable and take out the wireless. WIndows 7 is quite stable. So there you go. A free safe Windows!
Whenever i use Windows i either take a pirated version or just use the official one for 3 months. I don't even bother to install antiVirus, and never had no problems. XP wasn't unstable for me neither.

I still don't think that look and feel is what should make one pick Debian as the distribution of choice (Or any other distro, in case it matters). If someone would say "i have picked gnome over kde, or theme A over theme B, cause i like it's look and feel better" is something i could understand.
I like the look and feel of Win7 way more than any environment i know when using Linux, btw.

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#36 Post by tomazzi »

schnuller wrote:Whenever i use Windows i either take a pirated version or just use the official one for 3 months. I don't even bother to install antiVirus, and never had no problems. XP wasn't unstable for me neither.
At lest few things should be explained here:
1. Congratulations: publicly available, pirated copies of winblows are not *free* - they are just including or are prepared for troyans. And You, because of believing in a second-hand or "mastered" versions of winblows are just a naive victim - again: congratulations... (windows MX f.e. is a great example of how to blow up users' arse)
2. Windows is relatively stable as long, as You don't try to install programs on it .... that will kill its performance, becausae it's not prepared to launch any programs ;) but also due to a to a simple fact:
Every single program for winblows contains malware, add-ons for your browser, antivirus software (usually that utter crap called McAffee) and yet more crap.

So, congratulations - You have found Your favourite OS - I have to spend a lot more time to have one ...

PS.
schnuller wrote: I like the look and feel of Win7 way more than any environment i know when using Linux, btw.
Did You know that pre-SP1 win7 have used win95/98 icons for hardware manager? whoa...
Last edited by tomazzi on 2015-01-06 01:54, edited 1 time in total.
Odi profanum vulgus

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old_croc
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Location: Blue Mountains, Australia

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#37 Post by old_croc »

Wherever Linux is heading, it keeps improving!

My first experience with Linux was through Slackware back in 1997. In those days - well before conveniences like CUPS and ALSA appeared on the scene - Linux was not for the fainthearted. You had to rebake your own kernel to get any kind of printer support (however primitive), sound was sometimes an option but only if you had a genuine Creative Soundblaster soundcard.

X window managers - if you had one - were primitive and not easy to get going. Strangely enough one early X window manager, Motif, was neither open source not free: a licence cost about $150. The Freeware Window Manager (fvwm) soon took over even though, in the early days, the most common applications were an Xterminal and an Xclock. As for the rest, you'd better know your Unix commands.

Now look at what we've got today: a universal operating system with a huge array of software - all open source. You can do sound, video or photo editing, write your own music, do book publishing or web design, play games or whatever, all with GNU open source software that's as good as, if not better than, commercial alternatives. My daily work computer has been MSWindows-free for more than 10 years and I've never felt the need to go back (or even use WINE).

And as for Linux becoming more and more like Windows, I vividly remember "fvwm95", a desktop current in the last 1990s, designed to make Linux look like Windows95 as much as possible. So what's new? Anyway, my suspicion is that Windows these days might slowly be becoming a bit more like Linux!

So rather than bicker about relative pluses or minuses of different distros or systemd vs. sysVinit, let us remember that Linux is Linux and stay united behind the GNU open source community.
If at first you don't succeed . . . . . .
. . . . . . . skydiving is not for you!

schnuller
Posts: 386
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Re: What is Linux becoming?

#38 Post by schnuller »

The Freeware Window Manager (fvwm) soon took over even though,
I assumed it would mean "fuckin virtual window manager", but seem to have been wrong:
http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#1.1

People still care for GNU? Looked to me as if after the whole "open source" debate most have chosen that path (considering GNU to be a pain in the ass from the past ...).

Not all of the software in the Debian repos is from GNU, of course. You seem to confuse terms.

What you tell of the past sounds more like my kind of thing, btw.

schnuller
Posts: 386
Joined: 2014-11-25 05:05

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#39 Post by schnuller »

tomazzi wrote: Every single program for winblows contains malware, add-ons for your browser, antivirus software (usually that utter crap called McAffee) and yet more crap.
Are you telling me that vim, emacs, claws-mail, geany, zim, firefox, thunderbird, codeblocks, etc contain malware, add-ons or antivirus software, when i install them on Windows?
OMG. OMG. I am all lost now. If i only had known. You made me see the light.

Well: i for one was and am able to start programs in Windows, even after installing applications. I guess other people are also capable of doing it, else no one would use it, or?
I used it, for example, on a Pentium4, btw (Windows7, that is).

Did i say somewhere it is my favorite OS? Can you give me the link and the quote? (I cuold swear i ain't got no favorite OS, nor care for such question, but if i have said it, then ... perhaps i got one, without knowing it).

At least it works: Just don't bash Windows like an idiot, and the fanboy phrases get repeated as if they were never said before.
There are higher goals than being a better OS than Windows.

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: What is Linux becoming?

#40 Post by tomazzi »

Ok, I've oversized the problem a bit. Definitely, it was not entirely true that *every single program* contains malware. Perhaps, I should say that "every single commercial software" contains malware...

Of course, You have provided valid examples of Free Software which has been ported to winblows, but at the same time, You have failed with avoiding to answer to my claim, that commercial software is pirated for profit, and naive users are just the victims of this practice.
schnuller wrote:People still care for GNU? Looked to me as if after the whole "open source" debate most have chosen that path (considering GNU to be a pain in the ass from the past ...).
Definitely, You have completely no idea about what is GNU project, so better just stop talking about it, unless You want to show yourself as a complete idiot...

... in case if in doubt: binutils, gcc and lots of other projects have the roots in GNU project.

...strange, what are You doing here?- perhaps windows forums would be more interresting for ya...
Odi profanum vulgus

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