operating systems without systemd

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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby schnuller » 2014-11-27 16:41

with dkms (iirc, the name does not matter, it gets installed as a dependency, i think) VirtualBox is pretty straight forward. If speed was a problem ... well: that can be a pain.
I got enough computers, but ran out of CD's (i probably could use a USB-stick ... now that is an idea i didn't think of before just now ...).
Sorry to hear the problems don't get sorted.
Well: i see your problem[s], i get your reasoning.
I ain't got better ideas.

I had running BSD on really crap computers, and it sure is easy on resources. So if you can get such a PC for free ... (no sane person would keep it. They are useless besides some fun stuff)

To make a long story short: Good luck.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby twoflowers » 2014-11-27 17:02

BTW, "startx" with old console will most likely result in an X session without keyboard and mouse on FreeBSD.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2014-11-27 17:46

roseway wrote:PC-BSD doesn't have live CDs, but they do offer some ready-to-go VirtualBox images.

http://www.pcbsd.org/en/download.html
Thanks, roseway. I remember seeing VB images but couldn’t remember where. I'll give that a try when I'm in the mood . . .
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby kernelKurtz » 2014-11-27 18:43

A few items for the list:

FuguIta is a live CD for OpenBSD ... I found it relatively painless to get running.
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fuguita

AV Linux is a pretty nice respin of Debian 6 (no guarantee they won't downgrade I guess).
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=avlinux

The "Business Edition" of SolydX (and SoldyK?) is free of the virus. There was some sad news this week of the lead dev stepping back.
http://solydxk.com/business/solydxbe/

Right now I'm leaning most heavily on Salix and Pisi. However, I did read somewhere that Liberte may have an update in the works ... that would be ideal, as it's privacy-focused and based on Gentoo.

God bless us every one.

Edit: BTW, thanks to whoever it was that posted this thread's link in the Distrowatch comments. I posted a TY there, but it didn't stick.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-28 02:35

golinux wrote:I want to give some version of BSD a spin using a live disk with a DE. IIUC, FreeBSD's live disk boots to console - no DE. I haven't been able to get the PS2 mouse working on the Ghost live disk - tried several times. :( So if any of you have found a BSD distro with a live disk that actually, works please post you suggestions here. Thanks!

What kinda mobo we talking about here? Cuz I just recently built an AMD machine and I've had issues but worked them out. My BIOS is set to 'legacy mode', not ready, willing or want to 'fight' with UEFI just yet, IOMMU was the main culprit.

In regards to printer support, Mac is based on BSD so if the printer box says OS(u)X supported, most likely the printer will work, I can get my old Brother printer (which boasted Windhose and Mac support back in the day) to work in Linux and the BSDs. Tip: try all the drivers in the list for your printer, sometimes the 'recommended' driver sucks.

Corrected for spelling and grammar.
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-12-01 02:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2014-11-28 02:46

Linadian wrote:
golinux wrote:I want to give some version of BSD a spin using a live disk with a DE. IIUC, FreeBSD's live disk boots to console - no DE. I haven't been able to get the PS2 mouse working on the Ghost live disk - tried several times. :( So if any of you have found a BSD distro with a live disk that actually, works please post you suggestions here. Thanks!

What kinda mobo we talking about here? Cuz I just recently built an AMD machine and I've had issues but worked them out. My BIOS is set to 'legacy mode', not ready, willing or want to 'fight' with UEFI just yet, IOMMU was the main culprit.
Mobo is a Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3. Not cutting edge but good for my use. My BIOS is also set to legacy mode.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-28 03:02

DebianFork dot org now has an official name (Devuan, pronounced dev+one) and is an official project with an official site. Did I say official enough? :lol:

From their email to me:
Dear Init-Freedom lovers,

The Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you.

As many of you might know already, the Init GR Debian vote promoted by
Ian Jackson wasn't useful to protect Debian's legacy and its users
from the systemd avalanche.

This situation prospects a lock in systemd dependencies which is
de-facto threatening freedom of development and has serious
consequences for Debian, its upstream and its downstream.

The CTTE managed to swap a dependency and gain us time over a subtle
install of systemd over sysvinit, but even this process was exhausting
and full of drama. Ultimately, a week ago, Ian Jackson resigned
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/20 ... 00091.html.

The problem is obviously not just technical: the VUAs idea of calling
for a "fork" mostly refers to the lack of common ground between
diverging perceptions of the Debian project, its governance and its
mission. Diverse mediation attempts have failed. Today we can all
peacefully agree on one thing: further negotiations related to systemd
are costing way too much energy for anyone concerned about the cause
of Init Freedom.

We believe this situation is also the result of a longer process
leading to the take-over of Debian by the GNOME project
agenda. Considering how far this has propagated today and the
importance of Debian as a universal OS and base system in the
distribution panorama, what is at stake is the future of GNU/Linux in
a scenario of complete homogeneization and lock-in of all base
distributions.

Therefore, looking at how the situation stands today: we need to fork.

In appendix to this mail is the message of Roger Leigh, a Debian
Developer and maintainer of many important parts in Debian. We have
his endorsement and that of other 2 anonymous DDs, plus many letters
from concerned professionals upstream and downstream of Debian.

We welcome all Debian Developers intrigued by our plans. The Dyne.org
non-profit foundation has accepted to provide us support and the
administrative framework we need to get up to speed. If we all
struggle for elegance it will be a light and lean effort, think of
channeling the bad energies into creating something new and beautiful
in its simplicity...

# So we will fork!

First of all, our project is called "Devuan". Our home is on
https://devuan.org. Please spread the word.
The Debianfork website and IRC channel stay as the first campfire for
this adventure, but we will be operating under the name "Devuan" from
now on and we invite everyone to use this name when referring to our
project.

Now we need all your support and attention in order to shape this as a
collective and welcoming process for all the people inside and outside
Debian that are willing to contribute to it.

Our fork will grow gradually and step by step, tracing a path that is
different from the one that systemd and the GNOME projects are trying
to impose on everyone. There is space for everyone who wants to
participate, a good channel to start from is #devuan on freenode, the
GitHub issues are the TODO and main topic for that channel, while the
well participated #debianfork stays open for the more general
discussion.

# So what's the plan?

First mid-term goal is to produce a reliable and minimalist base
distribution that stays away from the homogenization and lock-in
promoted by systemd. This distribution should be ready about the time
Debian Jessie is ready and will constitute a seamless alternative to
its dist-upgrade. As of today, the only ones resisting are the
Slackware and Gentoo distributions, but we need to provide a solid
ground also for apt-get based distributions. All project on the
downstream side of Debian that are concerned by the systemd avalanche
are welcome to keep an eye on our initiative and evaluate it as an
alternative base. We will work carefully to make it a viable
possibility and our primary goal here will be a clean removal of
systemd and its dependencies, rebuilding and patching packages when
necessary.

There is already an interesting proof of concept for this plan: the
website http://without-systemd.org/debian-jessie/ (by Obri) explains
the pinning method and provides a 64bit installer of Debian testing
free from systemd. We are running a systemd-free pin on our new Devuan
infrastructure already, well ready to eat our own dogfood of
course. If you have greneric experiments to contribute, experiences or
ideas and documention on this and other approaches, feel free to use
the wiki on http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page.

We started setting up the first bits of a core infrastructure to host
a website, mailinglists and a dak based package repository (to be
mirrored, soon details!).

We are also uploading materials on the https://github.com/devuan group
which we plan to use as a development platform, at least in this
initial phase.

For those willing to help immediately, we still need to setup a BTS
(https://www.debian.org/Bugs/) which will allow us to inherit a lot of
the useful tools Debian has developed.

At last we plan to have continuous integration of packages from GitHub
to a Jenkins builder (http://jenkins-debian-glue.org/) and then to our
package repositories. Feel free to experiment and let us know

Continuous Integration Pipeline:

Github --> Jenkins --> packages.devuan.org .oO mirrors

Once this is all set, we will be ready to welcome package maintainers.

Besides the BTS we will use GitHub issues on
https://github.com/devuan/devuan-baseconf/issues for task
coordination.

The first package of Devuan is indeed `devuan-baseconf` which
basically consists of a Debian installer with preseed of sysvinit-core
and a couple of devuan packages containing devuan keyring, devuan
repository list files and pinning out of systemd-sysv. Once installed
and updated this package will avoid the requirement of systemd as PID
1 in any case and will prefer use of systemd-shim when strictly
needed.

# More about the vision

This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a
process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to
import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under
a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask
you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover
the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place.

Devuan aims to be a base distribution whose mission is to put the
freedom of users: to be intended as developers, sysadmins and in
general tech-savvy people, as the majority of Debian users are. Among
the priorities are: enable diversity, interoperability and backward
compatibility for the existing Debian downstream willing to preserve
Init Freedom and avoid the opaque and homogenizing systemd avalanche.

Devuan will derive its own installer and package repositories from
Debian, modifying them where necessary, with the first goal of
removing systemd, still inheriting the Debian development workflow and
continuing it on a different path: free from bloat as a minimalist
base distro should be. Users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to
Devuan smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie.

Devuan will make an effort to rebuild an infrastructure similar to
Debian, but will also take the opportunity to innovate some of its
practices. Devuan developers look at this project as a fresh new start
for a community of interested people and do not intend to enforce the
vexation of hierarchy and bureaucracy that is often opposing
innovation in Debian. We are well conscious this is possible mostly
because of starting small again and we will do our best to not repeat
the same mistakes.

The Devuan distribution will make an effort to improve its
relationship with both upstream and downstream and, particularly in
its gestational phase, will do its best to accomodate needs of those
downstream distributions willing to adopt it as base. We look forward
to statements of interest from such distributions, as well involvement
in this planning phase.

Devuan will do its best to stay minimal and abide to the UNIX
philosophy of "doing one thing and doing it well". It will foster
diversity and freedom of choice among all its components and will
perceive itself not as an end product, but as a a process, a starting
point for developers, a viable base for sysadmins and a stable tool
for people who have enough experience with computers. Devuan will
never compromise for more efficiency at the cost of the the freedom of
its users, rather than leave that and the responsibility for a secure
setup to downstream developers.

# If you need Devuan, then join us and support us now!

Donations: https://devuan.org/donate.html

Designers and creatives: please contribute logos! we don't have one yet.

Wiki: http://without-systemd.org/wiki

GitHub: https://github.com/Devuan

Press and contacts: vua@debianfork.org

General discussion (1st mailinglist):
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/m ... stinfo/dng

IRC chat channels on freenode:
#debianfork (generic discussion)
#devuan (focus on development)

- -- We conclude quoting a letter by Roger Leigh

Hi,

I'm a Debian developer, currently quite disillusioned with what's been
going on with Debian over the last two years. I'd certainly be
interested in getting involved with a fork.

If systemd had just been an interchangeable init system it wouldn't be
so problematic. It's the scope creep and mess of poorly-defined
interdependencies that are truly shocking. Take logind, for example.
When looking at how to implement XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for non-systemd
inits, I couldn't find any actual specification for how to do this.
That's because there isn't one, just some loosely-worded descriptions;
it only exists in the systemd implementation. And the semantics of it
are very poor indeed; it hasn't been developed with safety, security
or flexibility in mind. We'll come to regret adopting this since the
poor design decisions are likely to become entrenched.

And more recently, there have been several reports of unbootable
systems. That's unconscionable, and a serious break with Debian's
traditionally solid support for backward compatibility. Here,
existing supported systems have had that support dropped on the floor.
With sysvinit great effort was taken never to break existing
configurations, and that appears to have been lost. Introducing
dependency-based boot took over two stable cycles; optional in one,
default in the next, mandatory after that. That could have been
reduced certainly, but the point is that time was taken to ensure
its correctness and robustness (and in the beginning, it did need
work, so the wait was worthwhile). This has not occurred with
systemd, which has been made the default yet is still not ready
for production use.

Debian is developed by hundreds of active developers and used by many
times more people. People rely on Debian for their jobs and
businesses, their research and their hobbies. It's not a playground
for such radical experimentation. systemd support was forced in
rapidly and didn't just cause breakage, it caused breakage with our
own past, breaking the reliable upgrades which Debian has been
renowned for. Personally, I'd like to see a much higher regard for
stability and backward compatibility, rather than just ripping out
the old in place of the new without any regard for its true value.
It might not be bleeding edge, but we already have Fedora for people
who value this over a solid and dependable system. It's possible to
be up-to-date without being a Fedora; Debian unstable historically
made a good job of this.


Kind regards,
Roger

--
.''`. Roger Leigh
: :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
`. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
`- GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800

Tings is gettin interesting.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby buntunub » 2014-11-28 07:44

The VUA had already announced their intention to fork a while ago on DWW. They said they would do it IF Debian did not regain some sanity in their release process and/or return to it's conservative approach to stable releases. Debian has made it's decision, and now the fork is a go. I think it is way past time for it. Go freedom of choice!
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-28 07:52

debianfork need to set up a proper web-site instead of the one they have. Honestly, it gives the impression it is a website for a third-world 'restaurant' with that fork and huge text. They also need to set up a proper discussion channel like this forum. Honestly, there must exist someone who can create an appealing web-site with more information. As it is, it looks like a web-site created by an eight year old. This means, their marketing strategy is already flawed, and many visitors will get the impression that they cannot be taken seriously.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby schnuller » 2014-11-28 10:17

edbarx wrote: They also need to set up a proper discussion channel like this forum.
A proper discussion channel is a mailing list and/or IRC, depending what the actual problem is. Not a forum.
Why? I don't know. It simply is that way.

As far webdesign is concerned: To each his own. Some prefer plain text design (for starters it is fast and lacks security problems).
Go to slackware.com. It will be more pleasing to your eyes.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby oswaldkelso » 2014-11-28 10:25

edbark imo you need to give forks/folks a little time. They are a diverse bunch and like any new venture needs time to thrash out their infrastructure.

I find quite like the debianfork website and find it quite appealing myself but it's very clear that it's just a banner page for those who have no understanding of what the fuss is about.

Like wise the #debianfork channel has lots of chatter and bugged by systemd trolls. But they do have a development channel and git repo and plans for a wiki etc. I read a thread about whether they needed a forum or not, it's early days but it looks like it's growing legs and will become a reality. When I first used to visit there was like 35 folks in the channel last time I looked over 170 so it seems to be growing and no doubt will create the infrastructure it needs.

It also looks like it has a "real" name and not debianfork which was chosen when some one was told in the #debian channel to "Why don't you go ask in #debianfork". So #debianfork was created as a channel for open discussion because it was suppressed in #debian! ironic or what. In what looks like a following in the naming tradition the new name seems to be "Devuan" which I guess is a play on Debian and VUA and would in that case be said as "Dev-oo-an" . Anyway if you can ignore the chatter there is very good info in that channel and there seems to be open and honest debates even with the trolls.

edit: Seems my guess was wrong https://devuan.org/

Dear Init-Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you!
Our project is called "Devuan".
Devuan is spelled in Italian and it is pronounced just like "DevOne" in English.
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby ChrisW » 2014-11-28 12:35

Devuan now has a website: https://devuan.org/

Apparently the name is meant to be Italian and for English speakers is said "DevOne"

Personally I would rather they put effort into getting the bones of the project in place, which they seem to be doing, than design fancy websites or a forum.

Their ambition:
Our objective for the spring of 2015 is that users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to Devuan 1 smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie, and start using our package repositories.


I wish them luck and have donated as this, for me, is the ideal solution to the path Debian has taken.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-29 03:27

ChrisW wrote:Devuan now has a website: https://devuan.org/

Apparently the name is meant to be Italian and for English speakers is said "DevOne"

Personally I would rather they put effort into getting the bones of the project in place, which they seem to be doing, than design fancy websites or a forum.

Their ambition:
Our objective for the spring of 2015 is that users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to Devuan 1 smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie, and start using our package repositories.


I wish them luck and have donated as this, for me, is the ideal solution to the path Debian has taken.

The first half of your post is a repeat of what I said/posted. In regards to donating, I tried but the credit card link seemed 'dead', I'm guessing my browser is too locked down (NoScript + AdBlock), I'll have to try again. To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation), give them time to wipe the placenta off fer cryin out loud, jeezuz. Sign up, give them a hand! :idea: :!:
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby golinux » 2014-11-29 05:13

Linadian wrote:To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation)

If you'd actually gone to their website (instead of making something up), you would know that DeVUAn includes the VUA acronym and is pronounced Dev-one.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-29 06:24

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote:To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation)

If you'd actually gone to their website (instead of making something up), you would know that DeVUAn includes the VUA acronym and is pronounced Dev-one.

I did go to their website and I know how they want it pronounced, and that their acronym is included in the name, but apparently you didn't completely comprehend what I said, I said it "looks like...". Please don't assume or talk to me like that, thanks.
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