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operating systems without systemd

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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oswaldkelso
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#161 Post by oswaldkelso »

edbark imo you need to give forks/folks a little time. They are a diverse bunch and like any new venture needs time to thrash out their infrastructure.

I find quite like the debianfork website and find it quite appealing myself but it's very clear that it's just a banner page for those who have no understanding of what the fuss is about.

Like wise the #debianfork channel has lots of chatter and bugged by systemd trolls. But they do have a development channel and git repo and plans for a wiki etc. I read a thread about whether they needed a forum or not, it's early days but it looks like it's growing legs and will become a reality. When I first used to visit there was like 35 folks in the channel last time I looked over 170 so it seems to be growing and no doubt will create the infrastructure it needs.

It also looks like it has a "real" name and not debianfork which was chosen when some one was told in the #debian channel to "Why don't you go ask in #debianfork". So #debianfork was created as a channel for open discussion because it was suppressed in #debian! ironic or what. In what looks like a following in the naming tradition the new name seems to be "Devuan" which I guess is a play on Debian and VUA and would in that case be said as "Dev-oo-an" . Anyway if you can ignore the chatter there is very good info in that channel and there seems to be open and honest debates even with the trolls.

edit: Seems my guess was wrong https://devuan.org/
Dear Init-Freedom lovers, the Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you!
Our project is called "Devuan".
Devuan is spelled in Italian and it is pronounced just like "DevOne" in English.
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Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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ChrisW
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#162 Post by ChrisW »

Devuan now has a website: https://devuan.org/

Apparently the name is meant to be Italian and for English speakers is said "DevOne"

Personally I would rather they put effort into getting the bones of the project in place, which they seem to be doing, than design fancy websites or a forum.

Their ambition:
Our objective for the spring of 2015 is that users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to Devuan 1 smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie, and start using our package repositories.
I wish them luck and have donated as this, for me, is the ideal solution to the path Debian has taken.
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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#163 Post by Linadian »

ChrisW wrote:Devuan now has a website: https://devuan.org/

Apparently the name is meant to be Italian and for English speakers is said "DevOne"

Personally I would rather they put effort into getting the bones of the project in place, which they seem to be doing, than design fancy websites or a forum.

Their ambition:
Our objective for the spring of 2015 is that users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to Devuan 1 smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie, and start using our package repositories.
I wish them luck and have donated as this, for me, is the ideal solution to the path Debian has taken.
The first half of your post is a repeat of what I said/posted. In regards to donating, I tried but the credit card link seemed 'dead', I'm guessing my browser is too locked down (NoScript + AdBlock), I'll have to try again. To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation), give them time to wipe the placenta off fer cryin out loud, jeezuz. Sign up, give them a hand! :idea: :!:
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#164 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation)
If you'd actually gone to their website (instead of making something up), you would know that DeVUAn includes the VUA acronym and is pronounced Dev-one.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#165 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote:To the complainers, VUA just gave birth to Devuan (looks like dev+whahn to me but whatever, each to their own interpretation)
If you'd actually gone to their website (instead of making something up), you would know that DeVUAn includes the VUA acronym and is pronounced Dev-one.
I did go to their website and I know how they want it pronounced, and that their acronym is included in the name, but apparently you didn't completely comprehend what I said, I said it "looks like...". Please don't assume or talk to me like that, thanks.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#166 Post by mmix »

oh joy! pure debian lover rejoice rejoice!

Devuan: Debian Without Systemd
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTg1MDQ

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#167 Post by dzz »

Someone mentioned grml. I got the latest grml32-full_2014.11.iso (Jessie-based with sysvinit). On two different machines, one Wheezy and one Jessie, in a virtualbox, boot hangs before even a console prompt.

Can anyone else here test and confirm that?

(apparently) similar problems have been seen.. with recent refracta and exegnu jessie-based test builds, using sysvinit (since util-linux 2.25x appeared)

Has anyone here produced a working jessie sysvinit build using official live-build (or any other method) recently?

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#168 Post by twoflowers »

This almost soundy like systemd creep.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#169 Post by pcalvert »

dzz wrote:Someone mentioned grml. I got the latest grml32-full_2014.11.iso (Jessie-based with sysvinit). On two different machines, one Wheezy and one Jessie, in a virtualbox, boot hangs before even a console prompt.

Can anyone else here test and confirm that?
I can confirm. I just tried running it in KVM.

I tried to attach a screenshot, but got this message:
Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.

CORRECTION: It works fine using KVM. The first time I tried it, I didn't give the VM enough memory. I just tried again, this time giving the VM 512 MB of RAM -- there were no noticeable problems.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#170 Post by schnuller »

distributions using eudev:

1. AUSTRUMI switched to eudev in March 2013 (see package list for the 2.6.8 release).

2. Parted Magic switched to eudev in August 2013.

3. Quirky (experimental version of Puppy Linux) switched to eudev in December 2013.

4. 0linux switched to eudev in February 2014 (see base packages for the eta release).

5. Linux From Scratch (standard version) switched to eudev in March 2014 (see this commit).

6. Funtoo Linux switched to eudev in June 2014.

7. CRUX switched to eudev in July 2014.

8. Void Linux switched to eudev in July 2014 (see this commit).

9. GNU OS switched to eudev in September 2014.

10. NuTyX switched to eudev in October 2014 (see system packages for the Saravane release).

11. Puppy Linux (standard version) switched to eudev in October 2014 (see package list for the 6.0 tahrpup release).

12. Manjaro Linux (OpenRC edition) has used eudev since the initial release in December 2014.


http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-10 ... a6c4750351

Next problem will be dbus, huh?

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#171 Post by mmix »

kill dbus would be cool, thanks to X11/Xorg,
it would be easier than systemd/ms-gui based system.

twoflowers

Re: operating systems without systemd

#172 Post by twoflowers »

I don't use dbus on FreeBSD.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#173 Post by TobiSGD »

mmix wrote:kill dbus would be cool, thanks to X11/Xorg,
it would be easier than systemd/ms-gui based system.
And here we see that again. Can you please explain in which way systemd is related to the MS GUI?


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Re: operating systems without systemd

#175 Post by Linadian »

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but here is another OS for your list fruitofloom, DesktopBSD. It's not even in the DW distro submission waiting list, not sure why.

Edit: Umm, the last release was 1.7 in 2009, maybe that's why, but the site says 2.0 is coming...weird, kinda looks abandoned.
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twoflowers

Re: operating systems without systemd

#176 Post by twoflowers »

DesktopBSD is abandomed. It installs and works pretty well, but any attempt to update breaks the system.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#177 Post by edbarx »

I think, at this particular time, when GNU/Linux is undergoing changes that impact choice, the only feasible option is to stick with Debian, while opting to use only the software that one approves of. Discontent will motivate coders who are discontent about the way GNU/Linux is taking, to create other solutions that work without needing systemd & co. However, one has wait for such solutions to evolve. In my case, I am thinking about the possibility of creating an init system for my needs, in the event I am contrained to, but it doesn't look like I will need to take that path. Devuan still needs to get rid of dbus and it looks this will be quite a challenge.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#178 Post by schnuller »

edbarx wrote:I think, at this particular time, when GNU/Linux is undergoing changes that impact choice, the only feasible option is to stick with Debian,.
It might be that is what you want to do.
But "the only feasible option" ? Rather not.
One migth stick to debian for many reasons. But that one reason, it is the only feasible option, is simply not a good one.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#179 Post by mmix »

i believe in devuan doing one thing well. and freebsd too.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#180 Post by tomazzi »

. Russia
TobiSGD wrote:
mmix wrote:kill dbus would be cool, thanks to X11/Xorg,
it would be easier than systemd/ms-gui based system.
And here we see that again. Can you please explain in which way systemd is related to the MS GUI?
But of course systemd is related to MS GUI, but it may not be visible at first sight - replacing init scripts with unified set of symbols allows to reletively easily create a gui for managing services (what is a fundamental part of server management tasks) - and I suppose this is one of key targets for systemd devs.

One may wonder why is that so important - I think, there are at least few plainly practical reasons:
1. The world is moving away from closed-src solutions (there's even an official note in this matter made by Eaton, in which they are explaining why they've donatad Debian. Russia, China are moving all their servers to Linux - although it may not be a good example, the numers are just huge)
2. In such situation MVP certificates are worth nothing - and there are hundreds of thousants of MVPs who knows nothing about Unix/Linux shell scripting - they are potentially wasted as human resources in the incoming era. They can only click with the mouse... <simplification of course, but not that far from realitty>

So I suppose that this is a plan for RedHat (but not only them): re-use winblows admins who have experience and are trained in handling stressing situations, but are unable to understand/learn how to use Linux. This can be especially true, if we consider a fact, that after something like 20 years of development MS created only a weak substitution for Linux/Unix shell : PowerShell. PowerShell is not very usable for admins, because on one side, for the decades nobody expected the winblows admins to be programmers, and on the other side PowerShell is nothing more than CINT (not to say that MS just stolen/bought the solution - as they have used to do - IE, SysInternals, just to name few).
Systemd opens the linux world for ex-winblows admins (maybe not yet at the moment), since it allows them to learn few simple keywords and become admin again.

(supplement: how many companies are now running winblows on servers? less and less: IBM, HP, Oracle, RedHat are selling Linux based servers <yes, IBM gave up on AIX>)
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