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operating systems without systemd

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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keithpeter
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#201 Post by keithpeter »

Job wrote:The DE is Gnome 2.x which is a welcome home for me. I just don't know how long they will keep Gnome 2 around at least I feel at home. No unnecessary clicks here.
gNewSense 3 will replaced I imagine by gNewSense 4 (wheezy based) when the latter is released. CentOS 6/Stella Linux 6 would probably be the place to go for Gnome 2 (updates until 2020, Stella provides all the multimedia, but smaller repositories, e.g. no Shotwell or Hugin because of no mono libraries &c).

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#202 Post by mean_dean »

golinux wrote: Don't you ever tire of changing usernames?
:wink: fixed it for ya

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#203 Post by Linadian »

keithpeter wrote:
Job wrote:The DE is Gnome 2.x which is a welcome home for me. I just don't know how long they will keep Gnome 2 around at least I feel at home. No unnecessary clicks here.
gNewSense 3 will replaced I imagine by gNewSense 4 (wheezy based) when the latter is released. CentOS 6/Stella Linux 6 would probably be the place to go for Gnome 2 (updates until 2020, Stella provides all the multimedia, but smaller repositories, e.g. no Shotwell or Hugin because of no mono libraries &c).
I just gave gNewSense 3.1 amd64 a live spin on my latest machine (see infamous sig, lol), anyway, it actually ran pretty good, but the old kernel (2.6.32.x) doesn't support any of the mobo or CPU sensors (except the SATA Seagate HDD temp) and it wasn't 'scaling' my processor like newer kernels do, especially kernels with firmware, the CPU idles at 1.4GHz (0.92V Vcore) under Debian 7.8 and throttles up quickly when required (this is a good thing, the CPU lasts longer, runs cooler and uses less electricity, I would venture to say gNewSense is not very 'green' for this reason). I test installed a bunch of stuff while live, it handled it pretty well. Then I cheated, I added the dmo squeeze repo, lol, installed DeVeDe, Bombono and DVDStyler for schizz n giggles, they all opened up normally. There was one annoying little head scratcher, Iceweasel is so old (3.5.x I think), it doesn't even display DuckDuckGo's main home search page properly, wtf is up with that?! Of course one could add the Iceweasel backport but that would kind of defeat the purpose of using gNewSense in the first place. :?

I should mention I added iommu=soft to the live kernel boot line, I didn't test without that 'fix', and the VIA chip USB 3.0 ports worked, I was a little amazed at this since the kernel is so old.

On another note, if gNewSense 4.x will be based on Wheezy, that means it will be like a libre LTS Wheezy (without the Debian branding of course) AND, since Wheezy is pre-virusd, so will gNS 4.x be virusd free.
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golinux
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#204 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:. . . AND, since Wheezy is pre-virusd, so will gNS 4.x be virusd free.
Not true! There are some virusd elements in Wheezy. libsystemd-login0 is installed on my Wheezy and Synaptic lists 9 systemd libs that aren't installed but could be if an app pulls them in as a dependency.
May the FORK be with you!

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Linadian
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#205 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote:. . . AND, since Wheezy is pre-virusd, so will gNS 4.x be virusd free.
Not true! There are some virusd elements in Wheezy. libsystemd-login0 is installed on my Wheezy and Synaptic lists 9 systemd libs that aren't installed but could be if an app pulls them in as a dependency.
You're right, the systemd creep is there, but according to some loud mouth 'gurus', all that shim crap is not actually a full blown poetthatd implementation until the main kernel barnacle systemd is installed, their words, not mine.

Funny story, when I was a kid, I swam in a lake with my family on vacation, a leech found its way in to my swimsuit and attached itself to my schlong, my mom used common table salt to get it off, why am I telling you this? Because that's what systemd is like, the leech in my story, a f*%ing borg barnacle leech POS bloat. :lol: :twisted:

Write your own OS Lennart, stop leg-riding everybody else, Linus hates you, you little weasel.
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keithpeter
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#206 Post by keithpeter »

Linadian wrote:...if gNewSense 4.x will be based on Wheezy, that means it will be like a libre LTS Wheezy...
Not if Sam Geeraerts achieves his desire of tracking debian *stable*. gNewSense has been playing catch up since the transition from Ubuntu base, but the gap is closing...

I *think* that gNewSense pulls the source packages from the .0 version of each debian release (Debian 6.0 for gNewSense 3 and 7.0 for gNewSense 4) then they do their own patches. The FSF criteria require that a distro can self build so everything is compiled from source for the various arches.

Iceweasel 3.5 is as you say ancient, so I compiled Gnu IceCat 17 for gNewSense 3.x [1] when I used gNewSense for day to day use (getting on for a year). Sam is trying to get an iceweasel 31 to build for gNewSense 4 (remember they want the Yeelong MIPS arch) but is having problems. Google the gnewsense-dev mailing list archives for details.

[1] http://www.gnewsense.org/Documentation/ ... tSeventeen

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#207 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Linux Mint Debian Edition 2 ("Betsy") will track jessie but use SysVinit:
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2764
deadbang

runfrodorun
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#208 Post by runfrodorun »

There's a lot of pages to this so I'm sure it's been noted but if you just reinstall sysvinit-core in debian, you can boot with sysvinit. This doesn't change the fact that everything is compiled against libsystemd0, but in my mind its an acceptable abuse.

Now if we can find operating systems that don't have pulseaudio too I'd be super happy. Let's all go to the hurd!
Much opinionated.
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No systemd.
Wow.

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#209 Post by mardybear »

runfrodorun wrote:
Now if we can find operating systems that don't have pulseaudio too I'd be super happy.
Tiny Core, Linux from Scratch, probably Puppy Linux.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#210 Post by Linadian »

mardybear wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:
Now if we can find operating systems that don't have pulseaudio too I'd be super happy.
Tiny Core, Linux from Scratch, probably Puppy Linux.
And PCLinuxOS has the 'package' task-pulseaudio-remove which you 'install' (not really, it's just a poettaudio remover script, or pulsebarnacle killer, lol), it works, I've tried it, system sounds and ALSA still OK after. :mrgreen:
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schnuller
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#211 Post by schnuller »

mardybear wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:
Now if we can find operating systems that don't have pulseaudio too I'd be super happy.
Tiny Core, Linux from Scratch, probably Puppy Linux.
I wouldn't bet, still didn't get my head into emerge and equery, but i think Gentoo can be added to the list:

Code: Select all

user$ equery list alsa-utils
 * Searching for alsa-utils ...
[IP-] [  ] media-sound/alsa-utils-1.0.28:0.9
user$ equery list pulseaudio
!!! No installed packages matching 'pulseaudio'
 * Searching for pulseaudio ...
user$ 
(If Gentoo can be added, Funtoo can be added too. And what else is based on Gentoo. I think gnu.org lists a free distro ... ).

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#212 Post by mean_dean »

does any distro require pulseaudio?

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#213 Post by mardybear »

mean_dean wrote:
does any distro require pulseaudio?
Probably not...maybe some gaming or multimedia distributions - don't know. But i do know Pulseaudio can be difficult to strip out of a system, so for me easier to use a distribution that doesn't have it pre-installed.

Interesting quotes from the Debian wiki, with parallels to systemd:
The sound stack in Linux has been the weakest link in Linux-as-a-desktop, and documentation on the web is often conflicting, out-of-date and dispiriting. Part of the problem is that pulseaudio was released before it was ready. The good news is that as of wheezy it pretty much works as advertised.
ALSA was working pretty well until the push to use pulse audio - pulseaudio was somewhat of a mess in squeeze.
Source: https://wiki.debian.org/Sound

and from: http://tuxradar.com/content/how-it-work ... -explained :
There's a problem with the state of Linux audio, and it's not that it doesn't always work. The issue is that it's overcomplicated. This soon becomes evident if you sit down with a piece of paper and try to draw the relationships between the technologies involved with taking audio from a music file to your speakers: the diagram soon turns into a plate of knotted spaghetti. This is a failure because there's nothing intrinsically more complicated about audio than any other technology. It enters your Linux box at one point and leaves at another.
...sounds eerily familiar to the current state of Linux.
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schnuller
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#214 Post by schnuller »

But i do know Pulseaudio can be difficult to strip out of a system, so for me easier to use a distribution that doesn't have it pre-installed.
You can easily install Debian without pulseaudio pre-installed.

As far it is me, the way i have used and installed Debian, it would be the default (assuming the word default makes any sense when it comes to debian. It doesn't).
(it would have been the same way for many others. But there is a change in culture, it seems).

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#215 Post by Linadian »

I just had to share this, a guy on twitter in this tweet claims this is from an actual Redhat slideshow presentation!
Image

Here's another funny from twitter...
Image
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#216 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:I just had to share this, a guy on twitter in this tweet claims this is from an actual Redhat slideshow presentation!
Image
It was indeed from a Red Hat summit presentation in 2014. I think those are on pages 5 and 6. The link was posted to one of the Devuan irc channels a few days ago. Nothing that those of us who are awake didn't already know.
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#217 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:Nothing that those of us who are awake didn't already know.
I don't travel in Redhat circles, I only just stumbled on it now, and I've never seen it on this forum, so excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuze me. I'm going back to 'sleep' now. :roll:
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#218 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:
golinux wrote:Nothing that those of us who are awake didn't already know.
I don't travel in Redhat circles, I only just stumbled on it now, and I've never seen it on this forum, so excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuze me. I'm going back to 'sleep' now. :roll:
Jeesh! You totally misread my intention. I meant that those of us who are awake know we're being Borged. I accept your apology. ;)
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Re: operating systems without systemd

#219 Post by bluecardigan »

golinux wrote:Nothing that those of us who are awake didn't already know.
Anyone want fries with that elitism?

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Re: operating systems without systemd

#220 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote:
golinux wrote:Nothing that those of us who are awake didn't already know.
I don't travel in Redhat circles, I only just stumbled on it now, and I've never seen it on this forum, so excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuze me. I'm going back to 'sleep' now. :roll:
Jeesh! You totally misread my intention. I meant that those of us who are awake know we're being Borged. I accept your apology. ;)
Just goes to show you can't judge the tone of text on a screen without a human voice tone to go with it. My curmudgeon pissy self apologizes, it's not you, it's me, the world sucks now and I hate it, I'm far too sensitive. I primarily posted them for the humour aspect, as for the blind sheep that will swallow any garbage (systemd, political spin, etc) that's spoon fed to them, there's no helping them so I give up. This is me quietly backing away...*boop boop boop*.
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