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Where will you go after systemd?

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Where will you go after systemd?

BSD
12
16%
Linux without systemd
34
47%
Mac
2
3%
Windows
0
No votes
something totally different
1
1%
have not decided yet
24
33%
 
Total votes: 73

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tomazzi
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#101 Post by tomazzi »

You haven't convinced me ( I'm not going to drop my current work with forking of systemd ), but I think it may be interresting, so I've tried to follow Head_on_a_Stick advice (in the mean time), but even though I've got a confirmation that I was "successfully" registerd on systemd-devel mailing list, my email was rejected because I'm not registered ... funny, maybe it's a server problem, I'll try to check this tomorrow.

If this will still fail, then I'll try Debian BTS... (cause I don't want to have duplicate reports).

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#102 Post by Deb-fan »

One more, yeah I know everyone is thrilled I'm gonna post again. :P

Don't worry this isn't supposed to be a wall of text this time around. Wanted to clarify some stuff and add a bit about this systemd issue.
When said "I" was going to try systemd, I didn't mean some ancient outdated version of it. There's a reason tons of new releases for it and assoc packages have come out. Clearly means bugs have been found and squashed and/or improvements made to it.

So when said that, meant I'm going to install the latest. Atm looks like that means Debian experimental repo. Mention in a post a long way back in the thread it's definitely a concern if Debian stable users are to get stuck w an ancient outdated version of systemd.

Also mentioned I ( hope) and/or don't believe Debian would do that. For sure not for something like an init system replacement. I hope and believe they've thought about this and know what they're doing.

Overall I agree with any Debian stable or even testing user who doesn't want to be a crash test dummy for systemd. Jmo ... that's for sure not supposed to be the Debian way either. Whole reason software goes through the experimental>unstable>testing>stable release process. I still really can't/don't believe Debian HQ hasn't thought it out and knows what they're doing.

Meaning they will release patches and whatever else as needed to any software allowed into the stable repo. Definitely agree w the people saying they don't think it's appropriate to make it default in stable. Would advise people to listen to Head_on_Stick and take the option of keeping sysvinit given in the installer.

Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat. People do have the option of not having to test drive outdated version(s) of systemd.

Not to mention ( as mentioned) there's TONS of easy ways a person can nix ( pun intended) an outdated systemd and keep SysV. Seen a few here, posted a few here and a gazillion others are readily available. Not being insulting to the person above or people saying bug reports. Though have to ask/wonder what version of systemd they're talking about. You'd have to start w the latest one available.

Zero doubt that in many of the outdated systemd(s). Those bugs were long since found and crushed and progress and new features made. The whole server(s) this and systemd and server admins that, not even going there. Anyone who should even dare call themselves a server admin, already knows 14 million alternatives and work around to relying on a buggy version of systemd or any other questionable config or package or they should, shrugs.

Chit ! Turned into a wall of text anyway, sighs. Sue me I guess. ;)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#103 Post by MALsPa »

Deb-fan wrote:Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat.
I'm not one of those who's bailing on Debian because of systemd. I've done a few Jessie installations -- got Jessie on two computers right now -- but I didn't notice any option in the installer about which init system to install. Not sure how I could have missed something like that.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#104 Post by Deb-fan »

Heya MALspa,

Hope you're doing well too. Think I remember you from I believe LM forum (same MALspa) ? Believe you were usually pretty dang knowledgeable and on the ball kinda person too. Nope ... you don't seem the kinda person who would miss something like that. Thought I'd seen Head_o_S mention an option in the installer. Maybe I'm wrong, if so I apologize to H_O_S and people here. Maybe it's recently been added or recently been taken away from installer ? I dunno in that case. Hopefully next time H_O_S stops in, he'll correct me or clarify ?

Either way, PLENTY of ways to do away w systemd. I refuse to bash Debian HQ, w/o having my facts straight. Started to go looking for people who are recognized as people taken seriously assoc with Debian and see what they have to say about what's happening. Their blogs etc etc. Found some, then decided to watch a movie instead. Will return to it later ... and would be grateful if someone else would link out to those kind of discussions on systemd. Rather than the FUD and regurgitated FUD so many people are spreading around.

At this point agree w and kinda wish Debian HQ would've just stuck w sysV or even better implemented one of the middle of the road options. ie: Sysv + Openrc or a buncha others. Could've likely taken a step up or sideways and kept more users happy. At least/until systemd proves itself. If only to avoid all this fighting and flame warring etc etc the issue is causing.

Also by now, am starting to lose my sense of humor about all the mess surrounding init system(s). Even if it doesn't bother or concern me personally. Still don't like seeing other good nixers upset if they don't have to be. Just some basic nosing around about which versions of what are in which repos.

Annoying and if Debian is letting an outdated version of systemd free on the userbase. It's unacceptable and *IF ... I'd like to know why and what they intend to do to make it right ? Still not going to bash Debian HQ, nor do I believe they've been taken over by Martian snails from the Dwebb nebula. :D When the movie's over, will go back to looking for what bigwigs from Debian have said about it.

* MALspa ... which version of systemd is on those Jessie installs you have ?

Sighs ... am on an expensive metered wireless highspeed connection atm. I don't want to spend A LOT of money to download and play with Debian stable ( or testing ... I don't use them). Am having to pay $10 a GB here ! You wanna talk about unfair dang it ! To make matters worse ( for me ) am right in the middle of multibooting another new laptop. This time around means hardcore GPT/UEFI and getting around a crapton of booby-traps and obstacles M$ came up with to keep me from installing a good OS, aka: Anything Gnu/Linux on my new hardware. Some old booby-traps, some new ones they crapped out upon the world. DAM U M$uks !!!!!

That's what brought me here, think I've almost got it sorted out. Came here looking for some info on something I want to figure out and that's when discovered this massive systemd issue raging. Had no idea it'd gotten this far out of hand. People from the twelek transfordium talking about forking Debian !?!?!? WTH ?!???!
Last edited by Deb-fan on 2015-01-24 10:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#105 Post by MALsPa »

Deb-fan wrote:Think I remember you from I believe LM forum (same MALspa) ?
Yeah, one and the same.
Deb-fan wrote:Believe you were usually pretty dang knowledgeable and on the ball kinda person too.
I'm still a newbie...
Deb-fan wrote:* MALspa ... which version of systemd is on those Jessie installs you have ?
See: https://packages.debian.org/search?keyw ... ection=all

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#106 Post by Deb-fan »

Thanks MALsPa,

Deb-fan = lmintnewb and lmintnewb2, lol. Ya might or not remember that user from LM forum. Stuck around trying to help out longgggggg after I'd quit using LM. Definitely thanks for the info, it's not as outdated a version as I was thinking it might be. Isn't newest ... but isn't the 2010 version either THANK de gawds !

Now for the million dollar question. What do you think about it, how has it been acting on your install(s) and hardware ? Have you tried pulling in a newer version of systemd + assoc packages yet ? Certainly curious and am sure others here are too.

The noob thing, that's a good sign fellow nixer. Think if someone has the right attitude they'll forever consider themselves a gnu/nix newb. Cause someone could use it for 20yrs and still learn something new ( or 4,000 summin's new everyday. Right ? :) )

Have more than once thought even people like Linus Torvald find something new, that they didn't know about FOSS all the time and stop and think to themselves. Hmmmm that's frickin cool, gotta bookmark this and mess with it some more later. :P
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#107 Post by MALsPa »

Deb-fan wrote:What do you think about it, how has it been acting on your install(s) and hardware ? Have you tried pulling in a newer version of systemd + assoc packages yet ?
I haven't noticed any problems so far. I haven't tried installing a newer version of systemd in Jessie. As far as what I think about it, systemd's fine with me. sysvinit was, too. I've got more important things going on in my life to be concerned about. My computer boots up, I'm happy.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#108 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

MALsPa wrote:
Deb-fan wrote:Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat.
I'm not one of those who's bailing on Debian because of systemd. I've done a few Jessie installations -- got Jessie on two computers right now -- but I didn't notice any option in the installer about which init system to install. Not sure how I could have missed something like that.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=774939

It's not an option in the installer -- when GRUB is installed, it provides a menu entry for booting with SysVinit.

If you try re-configuring your GRUB menu with the latest version of GRUB, it should provide the menu entries:

Code: Select all

# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
@confuselling alerted everyone to this here:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=119910
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schnuller
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#109 Post by schnuller »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:[

If you try re-configuring your GRUB menu with the latest version of GRUB, it should provide the menu entries:

Code: Select all

# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
You can't use one of the Debian specific solutions to add sysv as an option?
Or are we already beyond all differences between different distributions, anything specific willl be removed to make it all the same ?

For what it's worth: I haven't used grub-mkconfig once in all the years. I didn't even know it exists, until a few seconds ago.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#110 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

schnuller wrote:You can't use one of the Debian specific solutions to add sysv as an option?
Or are we already beyond all differences between different distributions, anything specific willl be removed to make it all the same ?

For what it's worth: I haven't used grub-mkconfig once in all the years. I didn't even know it exists, until a few seconds ago.
Well yes you could also use `update-grub` -- I prefer to write my own grub.cfg these days; the scripts are a hack-job from hell...

It is possible to simply add a kernel parameter to boot with "init=/lib/sysvinit/init" instead -- this is what the GRUB update does ;)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#111 Post by schnuller »

I also had dpkg-reconfigure in mind.
As far i remember update-grub never let me down, so i assume that is what i used all the time (might be i had to add FreeBSD or Hurd "manually" in /etc/grub.d).
Iow: I always use the most easy solution (Else there wouldn't have been a reason to use Debian over all those years).

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#112 Post by MALsPa »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:It's not an option in the installer -- when GRUB is installed, it provides a menu entry for booting with SysVinit.
Ah. I don't see the menu entry here, but this is grub-pc 2.02~beta2-19. I'm guessing it's there in grub-pc 2.02~beta2-20, which I see is in sid.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#113 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

MALsPa wrote:Ah. I don't see the menu entry here, but this is grub-pc 2.02~beta2-19. I'm guessing it's there in grub-pc 2.02~beta2-20, which I see is in sid.
I have the options after updating GRUB in jessie (version 2.02~beta2-19); do you have all the required SysV packages?

Code: Select all

# apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim
EDIT: You can test if your system will boot under SysVinit by appending the "init=/lib/sysvinit/init" parameter to your kernel command line after pressing "e" at the GRUB menu (<Ctrl>+x to boot after changing the line).
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#114 Post by MALsPa »

No -- I realized after posting that I'd probably have to actually install sysvinit first. :lol:

And then probably run update-grub, if installing sysvinit, etc., didn't cause update-grub to be run already.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#115 Post by Deb-fan »

Another thanks 2 Head_O_S for interesting, useful info. Thanks 2 MALsPa for that too. Seems Debian isn't throwing people into a shark tank. Also thanks to others for what you shared that didn't involve FUD and/or flaming other people in the community for no good reason. Well other than they had the impertinence to disagree with xyz persons FUD.

Edit: On second thought, not allowing someone to make me sink to their level. So got rid of a bunch of harsh contents ... Sighs. Rather just keep the sentiment below instead.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#116 Post by tomazzi »

bdtc1 wrote:
tomazzi wrote:Now tell me how to report this, as those are not bugs directly related to Debian, and are hard to reproduce.
We get Debian security updates all the time, saying that someone found that package "xyx" failed to do "abc", which might cause "def", based on source-code review. It doesn't have to be experienced or reproduced. I think that what you are finding should be reported via the official Debian infrastructure as release-critical bugs. Bring it all to light. A list of 30-40 critical bug reports has to get someone's attention. This is stuff which can freeze servers and destroy data.
OK, here's my report, containing only few (already mentioned) problems - I'm just curious what will happen...
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27386.html

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#117 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

tomazzi wrote:OK, here's my report, containing only few (already mentioned) problems - I'm just curious what will happen...
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27386.html

Regards.
Thank you very much for that -- hopefully this will improve systemd for the benefit of all users :)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#118 Post by twoflowers »

If you want systemd in debian to be reconsidered, it'd be a good idea to post all these bugs on the debian bugtracker and not on freedesktop.org.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#119 Post by mardybear »

Just some Sunday systemd haha.
http://fossforce.com/2015/01/top-ten-th ... t-systemd/
Top Ten Things Linux Users Say About systemd
FOSS Force

Back about four or five years ago, when FOSS Force was just a young whippersnapper yelling to be heard, we found people first noticing us when we dreamed up a unique weekly feature we cleverly called the Top Ten List. It was an immediate success. Unfortunately, we can’t claim credit for originating the concept, as Michael J. Fox saw one of our lists on his DeLorean’s dashboard computer while on a foray into the twenty-first century, and told someone at NBC when back home in the eighties, who told David Letterman. We lost out when Letterman used it on his show and took credit for it — even though it was our idea years later in the first place. Thanks, David.

Until now, we thought the days of the Top Ten on FOSS Force were long gone. However, the systemd brouhaha has awakened the inner Top Ten List that has been sleeping within us for all these years. Today, for one day only, the Top Ten List returns for one last encore — or the last one until the next time something tickles us funny.

Ladies and gentlemen, from the home office in Omaha, Nebraska, here is this week’s Top Ten List — the top ten things Linux users say about systemd.

10. Shouldn’t that be capitalized?

9. It can’t be very good if all it got was a D.

8. I think that’s some kind of thing that Microsoft hangs on their servers.

7. We developers know what’s best.

6. systemd? Where’s my gun?

5. Will I still be able to watch Netflix?

4. Not nearly educated enough on the issue to make an informed assessment currently.

3. I don’t know nothing but I know what’s best and systemd ain’t it.

2. systemd? systemd? We don’t need no stinking systemd.

1. Things were going kinda good around here until you brought that systemd to the party.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#120 Post by tomazzi »

twoflowers wrote:If you want systemd in debian to be reconsidered, it'd be a good idea to post all these bugs on the debian bugtracker and not on freedesktop.org.
Actually, after Ian Jackson's GR have been rejected, I see no hope for Debian.
That GR was completely logical: <simplification> if Your calculator program have a hard dependancy on a kind of init system, then this is simply stupid (saying gently).
This alone leaves no hope for reconsidering the choice of default init system.

Debian (or perhaps only some of the developers) have worked hard to reject that GR, so for me, it means that Debian is lost. Not direclty due to adopting of systemd, but because political reasons were preferred over technical/logical ones in this case.

Therefore, I've decided to write my own init system, compatible with systemd, so I'll be able to use Debian repositories, but without having to use systemd. And soon nobody will be able to use Debian (but also most of other distros) without systemd.

Regards.

ps. in the mean time, I'v got 1 response for my report, regarding 1 of the reported bugs. I've responded to that email, but for some rason it wasn't added to a thread - so if someone is interrested, here it is:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27395.html
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