Would you have switched to use Debian or any other .... ?

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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby kedaha » 2015-06-25 05:59

I haven't used any versions after Windows 95 but my answer is that I most definitely would've switched. My primary reason for switching from Windows to Debian was because I understood the ideals free software. In fact I would prefer to use Debian 4 "Etch" now rather than the latest version of Windows whatever its stabiliy, quality or dependability. It was an ethical choice.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-06-25 06:33

I was going to post that I can't afford the £80 for Windows but I have recently got rid of Windows 10 and that was free...

I got p***ed off with the updates that took all afternoon (no exaggeration) and the lack of transparency and user control.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby tomazzi » 2015-06-28 16:58

edbarx wrote:Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?


But of course, because right now, the current stability and quality of MS Window 7, 8 and 10 still leaves a lot to be desired.
More attractive UI doesn't make the OS better - it just makes it ... well, more attractive... - and that's not what I'm going to pay for.

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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Nili » 2015-06-30 16:50

Simply not, My desktop has created a reliable relationship with Debian. I will never ruin the love of this couple.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-21 18:33

Yes, definitively. I left Windows because of the attempt to create one OS for all kinds of devices. I'm fine using touch on my android-phone, but I have absolutely no interest of touch for my laptop or my stationary gaming/multimedia-rig. Actually, I would be very pissed if someone actually touched my screens...

That aside, W8.1 was slightly better than W8, as far as not having to see that ugly start-screen of lego-tiles quite as often, and then there is W10 that half way solves the mess. But I still don't like it. It's ugly, and I'm not as free to make it gorgeous as I am in Linux...

Stability and ease of use means nothing to me. There's nothing I dislike more than a pc and OS where everything just works. What to do with that? Facebook or twitter? Nope, we like a challenge, just as long as it isn't to much of a challenge..

But then again, I'm not average. I'm into computers for the sake of it, not because I want to use the computer for facebook/twitter or to pay my bills. I obviously do that stuff too, but that's not why I'm into computers. I could use pretty much any OS if it only was a matter of social networking and paying bills. Doesn't matter. Anything would do.

Leaving Windows completely isn't possible at this point, as my favourite-games only can be played in windows, so I can live with W8.1 on 1 partition just for that purpose. But it's only used for gaming. Nothing else. Even though GIMP is limited compared to Photoshop, I do try to manage with GIMP whenever possible. I do have Photoshop installed, but I hate to have to resort to it, so if not absolutely necessary, I don't touch Windows at all.

If and when I can play TrackMania natively in Linux, then Windows is left for good. But until then, I'll keep one install alive. But it bugs me that I have to.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Danielsan » 2015-07-21 20:00

I moved from Windows 2000 to the first generation of Mac mini G4, because I was pretty frustrated about virus, malware and all microsoft non-sense plus pushed from the curiosity. I heard about Linux but I at the time I thought was something for programmers and nothing more.

After a period of love of my new PC I discovered, that my new computer was already became obsolete, the new OS version didn't work on my Mac mini and I was unable to update anything, then I understood that 90% about any Apple product was just marketing able to generato a lot of hype.

I didn't remember how I discovered Ubuntu but frustrating about Win and Mac e probably because my old PC didn't support Vista I decided to try Ubuntu. I used with very satisfaction Ubuntu for while until I discovered Mark... After I understood that Mark and me had a different opinion about the way we like use the computer I switched to Debian.

I have been falling in love with Debian until I discovered Lennarth, other unbearable person, which wants impose its own idea how using the computer to the others.

Now I am preparing mentally to switch to another distro because systemd, probably I am going to Gentoo, the only reason I haven't switched to Gentoo is the lack of time, but I am sure I will find a way for doing the change.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-21 20:41

@ Danielsan

You will encounter unbearable persons in all distros and all communities. That's just a fact of life.

Just say it as it is. You didn't get your way, and that pisses you off. But you see, you aren't entitled to get your way in any distro. The only way you can earn that right, is if you develop your own distro.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Danielsan » 2015-07-21 21:11

@ Spacex

You're right, but some people are more invadent than others... :D

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to create my own distro neither my own desktop environment, however what is happened with systemd is the most weird fact I saw in the GNU/Linux ecosystem, there are a plenty of init system but no one of those developer's teams have pushed, with all the effort they could, their own init as the systemd team did for their init officially (and probably unofficially), with a giant at the shoulders which is able to frighten anyone with just its silent presence.

There are still place where exist more freedom than Debian is able to offer now, that is easy.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-21 21:21

You see, this is what I don't get. The only thing "forcing" you to use systemd is that the distribution you use uses it. And, as has been consistently demonstrated, whether it's a question of Arch or Debian or whatever, the decision to go to systemd was made on technical grounds. That these decisions weren't unanimous changes nothing. Most group decisions aren't unanimous. But all the things we held dear in free software have not changed with systemd. Two of the four freedoms are potentially comprised but importantly also potentially not comprised. Does the current systemd source code constitute obfuscript? If it does, then systemd is only nominally free software. Alas, I don't know the answer to that question. In any case, anyone who calls systemd proprietary either doesn't know what the word means or is telling porkies.

If my supermarket only stocks Frosties, does that mean I am forced to eat Frosties as a breakfast cereal? Is my supermarket at fault for not providing the choice I think I deserve?
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-21 21:50

Danielsan wrote:@ Spacex

You're right, but some people are more invadent than others... :D

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to create my own distro neither my own desktop environment, however what is happened with systemd is the most weird fact I saw in the GNU/Linux ecosystem, there are a plenty of init system but no one of those developer's teams have pushed, with all the effort they could, their own init as the systemd team did for their init officially (and probably unofficially), with a giant at the shoulders which is able to frighten anyone with just its silent presence.

There are still place where exist more freedom than Debian is able to offer now, that is easy.


You can choose whether to use systemd or sysVinit. That's freedom. If there was no systemd, there would be less freedom, not more. Then we all would have been forced to use SysVinit. How could not having a choice at all, be perceived as more freedom?

It's so easy to continue to use SysVinit in Debian that everything you are saying about lack of freedom is just nonsense. Sorry dude, but that's a fact. Not a opinion. Or do the systemd-haters have such a hard time installing systemd-shim? If that's the case, then may the force be with you and run to someone that doesn't force you to make any choices. Be free there. Free to choose among SysVinit and nothing else :)
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-21 21:59

somebodyelse wrote:If my supermarket only stocks Frosties, does that mean I am forced to eat Frosties as a breakfast cereal? Is my supermarket at fault for not providing the choice I think I deserve?


Yes, but this time the supermarket(Debian) provides everyone with the choice. SysVinit is still in stock.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Danielsan » 2015-07-21 22:05

@ somebodyelse

Please... Even if a software is under the GPL rules doesn't meant is good or better for definition. The facts about systemd are now well known, none of these facts are ables to say systemd was the best init available, the only true difference among systemd and the others init is that systemd has a Red hat as sponsor even though they want convincing us that it is under the umbrella of freedesktop.org as a indipendent project.

Systemd since its creation has been in the plans of Red Hat, how the major, if not the only real supporter, of the floss software nobody expressed any complaining against systemd for personal convenience hiding them selves back the GPL, but it is "de facto" a cartel because any technical topics is able to explain this exceptional event of convergence in an enviroment where the heterogeneity is the most distinct aspect.

So this story well teaches how the big corporations are able to influence even the floss ecosystem.


@ Spacex

I am sorry buddy but is not completely true your assumption and sounds like an opinion, you can avoid to install systemd but this probably won't work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however and not only a DE but any packages which need systemd as dependency and anyways you will always installed libsystem0. Simply you can't. It's like a deal with the devil. If would be so easy removing systemd from Debian we would have already Devuan available.
Last edited by Danielsan on 2015-08-06 14:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-22 00:12

@ Danielsan

Ok, you don't like the politics and principles of it. That's fine. I'm not going to argue with you there, as I assume it's pointless. But it's still a choice whether you use systemd or not. Just like it is a choice if you use Debian or not. Life is full of choices. Make them and move wherever you want to go. The decision has been made for Debian.

There may be alternatives to Systemd somewhere in the future, but under no circumstance is that going to be SysVinit. Get over it.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby millpond » 2015-07-22 04:13

I am on Linux becaise Win *is* a virus.
Folks should just read hackforums.net if they still have any delusions about M$ providing any sort of security or privacy on their systems. There simply is none.

Within the week, I will be building a Win7 system for the lil lady. Not looking forward to it.
I have XP on all my machines, hacked down to Win2k with most 'services' removed, and firewall, AV, and Updates always turned off.
The few boogers that do get in from time to time, cant get out and usually squirm until I kill them.
There is an effort to open source XP that has even been backed by Putin, so XP is staying here. ReactOS.
Key engineering concept: *ALWAYS* have a Second Source.
In actuality here XP is mostly Open Source, as sourceforge stuff usually runs better than the commercial crap - with some exceptions, of course.

The reason for Linux is simple: it gets things done, and it gets them done safer and more reliably.
For OpenVPN TUN seems alot more reliable than TAP, and whats more I can more easily create scripts to detect a dropped connection, and reconnect.
A good deal of the Open Source software simply works better on Linux and with more features. GcStar comes to mind.
There are some fairly crappy apps on Linux, but then most of their Win counterparparts work on Wine.

If I had a clearer understanding of what Debian was going to do with systemd, I would have stuck with Wheezy until the dust settled.
Right now systemd-shim seems to be holding off the slimeware, at least for the time being.
Having problems with power management which i suspect is systemd caused, but need to spend more time looking into it.

I'm pretty much stuck with Debian - have spent too much time and have too many optimizations, scripts and other things to change courses.
But I've turned off any type of auto-updates, and from now on its gonna be off grid.
Last edited by millpond on 2015-08-18 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-22 04:39

@Danielsan No one forces you to use it. You will say that there are interlocking dependencies. But it's because you are dependent on those dependencies. The software remains software you can use "freely", that you can audit "freely" etc. These were the freedoms (and more) that people fought for. POSIX compliance is just some afterthought people have come up with to get their knickers in a twist. And given that RMS was behind POSIX and he doesn't give a monkey's about systemd, I think it's a lot of fuss over nothing and possibly the result of MS shills winding everyone up. Wot, Microsoft two faced? That would never happen. "Linux is just as bad as Windows, hence I may as well use Windows, since it has better driver support etc. Especially now Microsoft has changed." Hmm...

Red Hat developed something useful for themselves. It is also useful for their competitors Novell/Attachmate/SUSE, hence why it is included in their Linux. It is also used by Arch Linux https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530, a bleeding edge distribution with a highly competent community. Red Hat are free to work on whatever suits them. They owe you absolutely nothing. Diddly squat. Zilch. You are free to develop x, y and z. No one is under any obligation.

No one forced Debian to adopt systemd. That Debian maybe did not have the resources to avoid systemd is no reflection on Red Hat. Red Hat has the freedom to work on what it wants. Having said that, I agree with Ian Murdock that RHEL's licensing effectively makes it proprietary. So are they furry woodland creatures? No.

What is this Linux community that has turned on Canonical and is turning on Red Hat and Debian, while chanting that Microsoft has changed? What is this Linux community that bemoans the complication of the landscape caused by Mir/Wayland and yet bemoans the simplification of the landscape caused by the rise of systemd? Sometimes, I think people just like moaning about stuff. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Except Microsoft. Who have changed :wink:
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