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Would you have switched to use Debian or any other .... ?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
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Danielsan
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#21 Post by Danielsan »

I moved from Windows 2000 to the first generation of Mac mini G4, because I was pretty frustrated about virus, malware and all microsoft non-sense plus pushed from the curiosity. I heard about Linux but I at the time I thought was something for programmers and nothing more.

After a period of love of my new PC I discovered, that my new computer was already became obsolete, the new OS version didn't work on my Mac mini and I was unable to update anything, then I understood that 90% about any Apple product was just marketing able to generato a lot of hype.

I didn't remember how I discovered Ubuntu but frustrating about Win and Mac e probably because my old PC didn't support Vista I decided to try Ubuntu. I used with very satisfaction Ubuntu for while until I discovered Mark... After I understood that Mark and me had a different opinion about the way we like use the computer I switched to Debian.

I have been falling in love with Debian until I discovered Lennarth, other unbearable person, which wants impose its own idea how using the computer to the others.

Now I am preparing mentally to switch to another distro because systemd, probably I am going to Gentoo, the only reason I haven't switched to Gentoo is the lack of time, but I am sure I will find a way for doing the change.

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#22 Post by spacex »

@ Danielsan

You will encounter unbearable persons in all distros and all communities. That's just a fact of life.

Just say it as it is. You didn't get your way, and that pisses you off. But you see, you aren't entitled to get your way in any distro. The only way you can earn that right, is if you develop your own distro.

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Danielsan
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#23 Post by Danielsan »

@ Spacex

You're right, but some people are more invadent than others... :D

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to create my own distro neither my own desktop environment, however what is happened with systemd is the most weird fact I saw in the GNU/Linux ecosystem, there are a plenty of init system but no one of those developer's teams have pushed, with all the effort they could, their own init as the systemd team did for their init officially (and probably unofficially), with a giant at the shoulders which is able to frighten anyone with just its silent presence.

There are still place where exist more freedom than Debian is able to offer now, that is easy.

somebodyelse
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#24 Post by somebodyelse »

You see, this is what I don't get. The only thing "forcing" you to use systemd is that the distribution you use uses it. And, as has been consistently demonstrated, whether it's a question of Arch or Debian or whatever, the decision to go to systemd was made on technical grounds. That these decisions weren't unanimous changes nothing. Most group decisions aren't unanimous. But all the things we held dear in free software have not changed with systemd. Two of the four freedoms are potentially comprised but importantly also potentially not comprised. Does the current systemd source code constitute obfuscript? If it does, then systemd is only nominally free software. Alas, I don't know the answer to that question. In any case, anyone who calls systemd proprietary either doesn't know what the word means or is telling porkies.

If my supermarket only stocks Frosties, does that mean I am forced to eat Frosties as a breakfast cereal? Is my supermarket at fault for not providing the choice I think I deserve?

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#25 Post by spacex »

Danielsan wrote:@ Spacex

You're right, but some people are more invadent than others... :D

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to create my own distro neither my own desktop environment, however what is happened with systemd is the most weird fact I saw in the GNU/Linux ecosystem, there are a plenty of init system but no one of those developer's teams have pushed, with all the effort they could, their own init as the systemd team did for their init officially (and probably unofficially), with a giant at the shoulders which is able to frighten anyone with just its silent presence.

There are still place where exist more freedom than Debian is able to offer now, that is easy.
You can choose whether to use systemd or sysVinit. That's freedom. If there was no systemd, there would be less freedom, not more. Then we all would have been forced to use SysVinit. How could not having a choice at all, be perceived as more freedom?

It's so easy to continue to use SysVinit in Debian that everything you are saying about lack of freedom is just nonsense. Sorry dude, but that's a fact. Not a opinion. Or do the systemd-haters have such a hard time installing systemd-shim? If that's the case, then may the force be with you and run to someone that doesn't force you to make any choices. Be free there. Free to choose among SysVinit and nothing else :)

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#26 Post by spacex »

somebodyelse wrote: If my supermarket only stocks Frosties, does that mean I am forced to eat Frosties as a breakfast cereal? Is my supermarket at fault for not providing the choice I think I deserve?
Yes, but this time the supermarket(Debian) provides everyone with the choice. SysVinit is still in stock.

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Danielsan
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#27 Post by Danielsan »

@ somebodyelse

Please... Even if a software is under the GPL rules doesn't meant is good or better for definition. The facts about systemd are now well known, none of these facts are ables to say systemd was the best init available, the only true difference among systemd and the others init is that systemd has a Red hat as sponsor even though they want convincing us that it is under the umbrella of freedesktop.org as a indipendent project.

Systemd since its creation has been in the plans of Red Hat, how the major, if not the only real supporter, of the floss software nobody expressed any complaining against systemd for personal convenience hiding them selves back the GPL, but it is "de facto" a cartel because any technical topics is able to explain this exceptional event of convergence in an enviroment where the heterogeneity is the most distinct aspect.

So this story well teaches how the big corporations are able to influence even the floss ecosystem.


@ Spacex

I am sorry buddy but is not completely true your assumption and sounds like an opinion, you can avoid to install systemd but this probably won't work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however and not only a DE but any packages which need systemd as dependency and anyways you will always installed libsystem0. Simply you can't. It's like a deal with the devil. If would be so easy removing systemd from Debian we would have already Devuan available.
Last edited by Danielsan on 2015-08-06 14:36, edited 2 times in total.

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#28 Post by spacex »

@ Danielsan

Ok, you don't like the politics and principles of it. That's fine. I'm not going to argue with you there, as I assume it's pointless. But it's still a choice whether you use systemd or not. Just like it is a choice if you use Debian or not. Life is full of choices. Make them and move wherever you want to go. The decision has been made for Debian.

There may be alternatives to Systemd somewhere in the future, but under no circumstance is that going to be SysVinit. Get over it.

millpond
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#29 Post by millpond »

I am on Linux becaise Win *is* a virus.
Folks should just read hackforums.net if they still have any delusions about M$ providing any sort of security or privacy on their systems. There simply is none.

Within the week, I will be building a Win7 system for the lil lady. Not looking forward to it.
I have XP on all my machines, hacked down to Win2k with most 'services' removed, and firewall, AV, and Updates always turned off.
The few boogers that do get in from time to time, cant get out and usually squirm until I kill them.
There is an effort to open source XP that has even been backed by Putin, so XP is staying here. ReactOS.
Key engineering concept: *ALWAYS* have a Second Source.
In actuality here XP is mostly Open Source, as sourceforge stuff usually runs better than the commercial crap - with some exceptions, of course.

The reason for Linux is simple: it gets things done, and it gets them done safer and more reliably.
For OpenVPN TUN seems alot more reliable than TAP, and whats more I can more easily create scripts to detect a dropped connection, and reconnect.
A good deal of the Open Source software simply works better on Linux and with more features. GcStar comes to mind.
There are some fairly crappy apps on Linux, but then most of their Win counterparparts work on Wine.

If I had a clearer understanding of what Debian was going to do with systemd, I would have stuck with Wheezy until the dust settled.
Right now systemd-shim seems to be holding off the slimeware, at least for the time being.
Having problems with power management which i suspect is systemd caused, but need to spend more time looking into it.

I'm pretty much stuck with Debian - have spent too much time and have too many optimizations, scripts and other things to change courses.
But I've turned off any type of auto-updates, and from now on its gonna be off grid.
Last edited by millpond on 2015-08-18 16:28, edited 1 time in total.

somebodyelse
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#30 Post by somebodyelse »

@Danielsan No one forces you to use it. You will say that there are interlocking dependencies. But it's because you are dependent on those dependencies. The software remains software you can use "freely", that you can audit "freely" etc. These were the freedoms (and more) that people fought for. POSIX compliance is just some afterthought people have come up with to get their knickers in a twist. And given that RMS was behind POSIX and he doesn't give a monkey's about systemd, I think it's a lot of fuss over nothing and possibly the result of MS shills winding everyone up. Wot, Microsoft two faced? That would never happen. "Linux is just as bad as Windows, hence I may as well use Windows, since it has better driver support etc. Especially now Microsoft has changed." Hmm...

Red Hat developed something useful for themselves. It is also useful for their competitors Novell/Attachmate/SUSE, hence why it is included in their Linux. It is also used by Arch Linux https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 0#p1149530, a bleeding edge distribution with a highly competent community. Red Hat are free to work on whatever suits them. They owe you absolutely nothing. Diddly squat. Zilch. You are free to develop x, y and z. No one is under any obligation.

No one forced Debian to adopt systemd. That Debian maybe did not have the resources to avoid systemd is no reflection on Red Hat. Red Hat has the freedom to work on what it wants. Having said that, I agree with Ian Murdock that RHEL's licensing effectively makes it proprietary. So are they furry woodland creatures? No.

What is this Linux community that has turned on Canonical and is turning on Red Hat and Debian, while chanting that Microsoft has changed? What is this Linux community that bemoans the complication of the landscape caused by Mir/Wayland and yet bemoans the simplification of the landscape caused by the rise of systemd? Sometimes, I think people just like moaning about stuff. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Except Microsoft. Who have changed :wink:

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#31 Post by spacex »

Danielsan wrote: I am sorry buddy but is not completely true your assumption and sounds like an opinion, you can avoid to install systemd but this probably won't work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however and not only a DE but any packages which need systemd as dependency and anyways you will always installed libsystem0. Simply you can't. It's like a deal with the devil. If would be so easy removing systemd from Debian we would have already Devuan available.
Yes, but that's a issue you have to take up with developers of apps and DE's. If you want to use SysVinit, you need to use compatible apps and DE's. But that's nothing new. There are many apps that I don't use because the developer has made it dependent on packages that I do not want to install. Most devs wanted systemd, so there is no surprise that most apps eventually will depend on it. If to few devs will develop alternatives for SysVinit, then SysVinit is not a viable alternative in the long run. But then again, if that's the case, then it only proves that there are insufficient interest for it as an alternative.

There is no freedom in someone having to develop something that they do not want to develop. It isn't only the end users that should have freedom. It has to apply to developers also. After all, it's a hobby, not a job.

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Danielsan
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#32 Post by Danielsan »

@ Somebodyelse & Spacex

I am agreed with you, somebody, someone, the dark side of the force, changed the way I like use Debian, then I am not feel comfortable anymore with Debian because systemd I lost my ssh connection with my PC family because systemd used to deactivate services arbitrary, the scanner stopped to work because saned is masked without a reason and there's no way to enable it, plus the energy of my laptop doesn't work correctly and those are only my personal experiences. But it is not the point, I didn't like the way as systemd was spread into GNU/Linux system, thus I can't obligate Debian to change init system but I can change distro, isn't it?

spacex
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#33 Post by spacex »

Danielsan wrote: But it is not the point, I didn't like the way as systemd was spread into GNU/Linux system, thus I can't obligate Debian to change init system but I can change distro, isn't it?
Sure you can. But if you change to Devuan, Gentoo or something else, then it probably would be better to change community also. Unless you like self-inflicted pain. If I didn't like Systemd, I wouldn't be here now. But as I only have positive experiences with systemd, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, and wait and see where it all ends up. I have been using Systemd for at least 2-3 years, because my pc performs better with it. No doubt about it. So I'm surprised that this isn't the case for everyone. Sure, I've had to modify scripts and stuff, but for me it has been worth it.

So let's wait and see. The worst case scenarios doesn't have to become true. If they do, then I will also leave, probably for Devuan, because there is no other alternative for me. Don't like any of the other big ones.

I have made a unofficial distro of my own, which is my preferred choice of distro. I don't use any other distro than my own, but as a derivative I depend on Debian anyway, and that's why I stick with the same default as Debian does. It makes everything a lot easier for everyone.

If I at some point can become a Devuan-derivative instead, then it might be interesting. But at this point, that is not a option, as Devuan depends on Debian. Anyway, I'm not going to do any kind of public announcement in about a year or so, so I have 10-12 months to think about it, while I build the infrastructure for my distro-project.

Time will tell what kind of init-default I will end up with. In the meantime, systemd is working well for this laptop... Which I'm going to replace soon. If my experience with systemd changes for the new pc I'm going to buy, then I'll drop systemd as a rotten tomato. Because I'm not really concerned about politics and principles. I'm more a "whatever works best" kind of a guy...

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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#34 Post by macdroid9000 »

Interesting topic for me, partly because of my hardware and partly because I've never used Windows as my main system at home, except for a couple of short periods. I purchased my first computer back in 1992 or 1993: a Packard Bell running Windows 3.11 with Packard Bell "Navigator" shell installed, presumably to overcome the inadequacies of the Windows 3.1 program manager interface. I quickly grew to dislike Windows 3.11 and looked for alternatives. At that time the only alternative I had heard of was OS2 so I switched. When Windows 95 came out I thought "this may be better" so I bought it. The UI was more intuitive but as far as stability, etc, it wasn't. Fast forward to 1998 when I discovered Mandrake Linux in a bookstore. I installed and never looked back.

I used Linux as my main desktop until 2009 when I tired of things breaking. It might have helped if I hadn't been using Gentoo, but that was my distro of choice at that time. In my search for a computer "that just worked", I bought a Mac computer and fell in love with OSX. After 6 years and realizing Apple is no different than Microsoft, in that they shove you down a path you may not want to walk, I have abandoned OSX, kept the hardware and am running Debian. The advancements in Linux, both UI and at the hardware support level have sold me again. So, on this beast of a computer (8 Xenon cores, 24 gig Ram, 4 TB disk space), Debian runs faster than OSX ever did on native hardware.

I have never considered Windows to be a "serious" operating system, mainly because to me, it has always appeared to be an amateurish effort, cobbled together by committees that really don't talk to each other. Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market. They do have an advantage over Apple in that Windows runs on practically anything. I will give Microsoft credit for that!

So, long story, but in answer to the OP's question, no, I wouldn't switch because I don't use Windows 8), at home anyway. At work I have no choice but here at home I do. Debian is my distro of choice now, mainly because it offers a good balance of ease of use, speed and if I want to get my hands dirty and lift the hood, I can.
"Give a man a truth and he will think for a day. Teach a man to reason and he will think for a lifetime"

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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#35 Post by exploder »

My answer is yes! I used to earn a living working with Windows NT 4 and although there were problems with drivers I liked it. Back then I made good money and upgraded my hardware often. Skip ahead to XP, Microsoft came out with product activation and changing hardware as often as I used to I found myself calling Microsoft to re-activate Windows a lot. Each time I called I was accused of installing XP on more than one computer. I am not a thief!

I had always been interested in Linux and had used it a little at home. My IT job ended when the factory shut down so hardware upgrades were a thing of the past. My wife brought home a book from the library one day that contained an early Mepis CD. I started reading the book and the more I read the more interested I became. I put a computer together out of spare parts, it was a sight! It had a proprietary case so I ended up doing some cutting to install a power supply and I had to change the case wiring to make it work.

I installed Mepis on the computer and it ran good, really good! This pieced together pile of junk ran better than my shiny custom build with XP! The OS was free and I could install it on as many computers as I liked! Not only that but no product activation and it out performed Windows on a computer that could never run XP. Mepis not only gave me a nice OS but a complete set of applications! Mepis had everything I wanted at no cost and I was hooked!

The more I ran Linux the more I discovered! I could have any desktop environment I wanted and switch between them! I did not need anti-virus software, no more disk defragmenting and there were thousands of applications I could install free of cost! I quickly lost interest in Windows! There was a down side though, my Lexmark printer scanner did not work. I figured out how to print with it but the scanner was never going to work again... I ended up trading it for an HP printer.

I learned a lot pretty quick, I could try Linux from a Live CD, I could move my hard drive to another computer and Linux would boot right up! I was amazed! I couldn't do those things with Windows, not that easy! I could move a hard drive with Windows but it was a chore and did not always work out very well. Linux in my mind was far superior in so many ways. Linux seemed to have more working out of the box too as far as drivers. Maybe it was just the hardware I had back then but it was nice having everything working right after the install.

I still look at new versions of Windows but even after all these years I still feel that Linux is far superior. Windows just seems so bloated and really has not advanced very much. To be totally fair though, Linux does have it's quirks from time to time. No software is perfect. The thing that really sold me on Linux was the vast amount of choice I had! I did not have to just accept one group of peoples interpretation of what they thought was best for me, the choice was mine! I can accept or reject anything any time I want, that's real freedom!

pendrachken
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#36 Post by pendrachken »

Bulkley wrote:I came to Linux because 1.) I was angry that every little upgrade made my software obsolete and 2.) Windows 95 buried DOS which I understood better than the GUI desktop.

Would I switch today? Well, having had to fix a Windows 8 and 8.1 the answer is still yes. The newer Windows come pre-loaded with commercial crap and browser hijackers and are very difficult to clean up and keep clean. If I install anything from the Debian repository I can trust it to be clean. While Windows itself may be clean, almost everything you add has its hooks into the user.
Let's actually be fair here:

That isn't Windows, that is OEMs. If you install from Microsoft Install Media you don't get any of that ( at least on versions prior to 10 for 100% sure ).



That said, to answer the OP question: I never "switched", there are some tools I use heavily that are Windows / Mac only so I use Windows and Mac. Other tools I use like NAS I use Linux / BSD for since they work better.

Basically it all comes down to using computers as TOOLS, not religious "My OS is better than YOUR OS" pissing matches.
fortune -o
Your love life will be... interesting.
:twisted: How did it know?

The U.S. uses the metric system too, we have tenths, hundredths and thousandths of inches :-P

Randicus
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#37 Post by Randicus »

macdroid9000 wrote:Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market.
In addition to forcing some competitors out of business by flooding the market with money loosing prices temporary, you left out buying the competition that was willing to be bought.

millpond
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#38 Post by millpond »

Randicus wrote:
macdroid9000 wrote:Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market.
In addition to forcing some competitors out of business by flooding the market with money loosing prices temporary, you left out buying the competition that was willing to be bought.
Should the secret trade treaties ever go through expect to see a sh!tstorm in the online world, especially in the Five Eyes.
They are HEAVILY geared toward *intellectual property rights*.
Think M$ patent claims on Linux.

Start mirroring your favorite repos.
Things could start disappearing, like dvdcss....

xenios
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#39 Post by xenios »

Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?
Most people I know see/use their computer as an appliance, so the likely answer for them is no... they won't switch.

MS is the johnny-come-lately, inept bungler that's never been as subtle as Apple or Google. Win10 is MS's way to catch up with the level of personal data collection which the other two have been monetizing for years. Most users are happily blind to being used and agree to provide their personal info for free, so those companies can make billions with that info.

Wheelerof4te
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Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

#40 Post by Wheelerof4te »

^I strongly agree with your point. But the thing is, they are already tracking us since we use smart phones. Oh well, the trials of life...

To answer the OP's question (who I respect, love your posts man). No I wouldn't switch to any Windows, not if I'm to use this PC rig that can run only Win XP. I've used WIN 7 on one laptop briefly and it annoyed the crap out of me when i shut it down and it tries to update itself for good 30 minutes.

Sadly, most people are forced to use Windows for MS Office or some other work-based application, like Autocad. Average computer users have no need for MS Windows. You have LibreOffice (a pretty good office replacement for average Joe/Jane) and all audio/video tools that you need on the regular basis. Also, if you are a gamer, buy that console and play your games. Or use Steam ;)

Plenty of good games for GNU/Linux there.

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