Would you have switched to use Debian or any other .... ?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-22 15:05

Danielsan wrote:I am sorry buddy but is not completely true your assumption and sounds like an opinion, you can avoid to install systemd but this probably won't work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however and not only a DE but any packages which need systemd as dependency and anyways you will always installed libsystem0. Simply you can't. It's like a deal with the devil. If would be so easy removing systemd from Debian we would have already Devuan available.


Yes, but that's a issue you have to take up with developers of apps and DE's. If you want to use SysVinit, you need to use compatible apps and DE's. But that's nothing new. There are many apps that I don't use because the developer has made it dependent on packages that I do not want to install. Most devs wanted systemd, so there is no surprise that most apps eventually will depend on it. If to few devs will develop alternatives for SysVinit, then SysVinit is not a viable alternative in the long run. But then again, if that's the case, then it only proves that there are insufficient interest for it as an alternative.

There is no freedom in someone having to develop something that they do not want to develop. It isn't only the end users that should have freedom. It has to apply to developers also. After all, it's a hobby, not a job.
spacex
 
Posts: 637
Joined: 2015-01-17 01:27

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Danielsan » 2015-07-22 16:33

@ Somebodyelse & Spacex

I am agreed with you, somebody, someone, the dark side of the force, changed the way I like use Debian, then I am not feel comfortable anymore with Debian because systemd I lost my ssh connection with my PC family because systemd used to deactivate services arbitrary, the scanner stopped to work because saned is masked without a reason and there's no way to enable it, plus the energy of my laptop doesn't work correctly and those are only my personal experiences. But it is not the point, I didn't like the way as systemd was spread into GNU/Linux system, thus I can't obligate Debian to change init system but I can change distro, isn't it?
User avatar
Danielsan
 
Posts: 599
Joined: 2010-10-10 22:36

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby spacex » 2015-07-22 18:51

Danielsan wrote: But it is not the point, I didn't like the way as systemd was spread into GNU/Linux system, thus I can't obligate Debian to change init system but I can change distro, isn't it?


Sure you can. But if you change to Devuan, Gentoo or something else, then it probably would be better to change community also. Unless you like self-inflicted pain. If I didn't like Systemd, I wouldn't be here now. But as I only have positive experiences with systemd, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, and wait and see where it all ends up. I have been using Systemd for at least 2-3 years, because my pc performs better with it. No doubt about it. So I'm surprised that this isn't the case for everyone. Sure, I've had to modify scripts and stuff, but for me it has been worth it.

So let's wait and see. The worst case scenarios doesn't have to become true. If they do, then I will also leave, probably for Devuan, because there is no other alternative for me. Don't like any of the other big ones.

I have made a unofficial distro of my own, which is my preferred choice of distro. I don't use any other distro than my own, but as a derivative I depend on Debian anyway, and that's why I stick with the same default as Debian does. It makes everything a lot easier for everyone.

If I at some point can become a Devuan-derivative instead, then it might be interesting. But at this point, that is not a option, as Devuan depends on Debian. Anyway, I'm not going to do any kind of public announcement in about a year or so, so I have 10-12 months to think about it, while I build the infrastructure for my distro-project.

Time will tell what kind of init-default I will end up with. In the meantime, systemd is working well for this laptop... Which I'm going to replace soon. If my experience with systemd changes for the new pc I'm going to buy, then I'll drop systemd as a rotten tomato. Because I'm not really concerned about politics and principles. I'm more a "whatever works best" kind of a guy...
spacex
 
Posts: 637
Joined: 2015-01-17 01:27

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby macdroid9000 » 2015-08-16 14:21

Interesting topic for me, partly because of my hardware and partly because I've never used Windows as my main system at home, except for a couple of short periods. I purchased my first computer back in 1992 or 1993: a Packard Bell running Windows 3.11 with Packard Bell "Navigator" shell installed, presumably to overcome the inadequacies of the Windows 3.1 program manager interface. I quickly grew to dislike Windows 3.11 and looked for alternatives. At that time the only alternative I had heard of was OS2 so I switched. When Windows 95 came out I thought "this may be better" so I bought it. The UI was more intuitive but as far as stability, etc, it wasn't. Fast forward to 1998 when I discovered Mandrake Linux in a bookstore. I installed and never looked back.

I used Linux as my main desktop until 2009 when I tired of things breaking. It might have helped if I hadn't been using Gentoo, but that was my distro of choice at that time. In my search for a computer "that just worked", I bought a Mac computer and fell in love with OSX. After 6 years and realizing Apple is no different than Microsoft, in that they shove you down a path you may not want to walk, I have abandoned OSX, kept the hardware and am running Debian. The advancements in Linux, both UI and at the hardware support level have sold me again. So, on this beast of a computer (8 Xenon cores, 24 gig Ram, 4 TB disk space), Debian runs faster than OSX ever did on native hardware.

I have never considered Windows to be a "serious" operating system, mainly because to me, it has always appeared to be an amateurish effort, cobbled together by committees that really don't talk to each other. Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market. They do have an advantage over Apple in that Windows runs on practically anything. I will give Microsoft credit for that!

So, long story, but in answer to the OP's question, no, I wouldn't switch because I don't use Windows 8), at home anyway. At work I have no choice but here at home I do. Debian is my distro of choice now, mainly because it offers a good balance of ease of use, speed and if I want to get my hands dirty and lift the hood, I can.
"Give a man a truth and he will think for a day. Teach a man to reason and he will think for a lifetime"
User avatar
macdroid9000
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 2015-08-16 13:27
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby exploder » 2015-08-16 15:33

My answer is yes! I used to earn a living working with Windows NT 4 and although there were problems with drivers I liked it. Back then I made good money and upgraded my hardware often. Skip ahead to XP, Microsoft came out with product activation and changing hardware as often as I used to I found myself calling Microsoft to re-activate Windows a lot. Each time I called I was accused of installing XP on more than one computer. I am not a thief!

I had always been interested in Linux and had used it a little at home. My IT job ended when the factory shut down so hardware upgrades were a thing of the past. My wife brought home a book from the library one day that contained an early Mepis CD. I started reading the book and the more I read the more interested I became. I put a computer together out of spare parts, it was a sight! It had a proprietary case so I ended up doing some cutting to install a power supply and I had to change the case wiring to make it work.

I installed Mepis on the computer and it ran good, really good! This pieced together pile of junk ran better than my shiny custom build with XP! The OS was free and I could install it on as many computers as I liked! Not only that but no product activation and it out performed Windows on a computer that could never run XP. Mepis not only gave me a nice OS but a complete set of applications! Mepis had everything I wanted at no cost and I was hooked!

The more I ran Linux the more I discovered! I could have any desktop environment I wanted and switch between them! I did not need anti-virus software, no more disk defragmenting and there were thousands of applications I could install free of cost! I quickly lost interest in Windows! There was a down side though, my Lexmark printer scanner did not work. I figured out how to print with it but the scanner was never going to work again... I ended up trading it for an HP printer.

I learned a lot pretty quick, I could try Linux from a Live CD, I could move my hard drive to another computer and Linux would boot right up! I was amazed! I couldn't do those things with Windows, not that easy! I could move a hard drive with Windows but it was a chore and did not always work out very well. Linux in my mind was far superior in so many ways. Linux seemed to have more working out of the box too as far as drivers. Maybe it was just the hardware I had back then but it was nice having everything working right after the install.

I still look at new versions of Windows but even after all these years I still feel that Linux is far superior. Windows just seems so bloated and really has not advanced very much. To be totally fair though, Linux does have it's quirks from time to time. No software is perfect. The thing that really sold me on Linux was the vast amount of choice I had! I did not have to just accept one group of peoples interpretation of what they thought was best for me, the choice was mine! I can accept or reject anything any time I want, that's real freedom!
exploder
 
Posts: 80
Joined: 2011-01-08 13:53

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby pendrachken » 2015-08-29 03:01

Bulkley wrote:I came to Linux because 1.) I was angry that every little upgrade made my software obsolete and 2.) Windows 95 buried DOS which I understood better than the GUI desktop.

Would I switch today? Well, having had to fix a Windows 8 and 8.1 the answer is still yes. The newer Windows come pre-loaded with commercial crap and browser hijackers and are very difficult to clean up and keep clean. If I install anything from the Debian repository I can trust it to be clean. While Windows itself may be clean, almost everything you add has its hooks into the user.


Let's actually be fair here:

That isn't Windows, that is OEMs. If you install from Microsoft Install Media you don't get any of that ( at least on versions prior to 10 for 100% sure ).



That said, to answer the OP question: I never "switched", there are some tools I use heavily that are Windows / Mac only so I use Windows and Mac. Other tools I use like NAS I use Linux / BSD for since they work better.

Basically it all comes down to using computers as TOOLS, not religious "My OS is better than YOUR OS" pissing matches.
fortune -o
Your love life will be... interesting.
:twisted: How did it know?

The U.S. uses the metric system too, we have tenths, hundredths and thousandths of inches :-P
pendrachken
 
Posts: 1378
Joined: 2007-03-04 21:10
Location: U.S.A. - WI.

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-29 03:43

macdroid9000 wrote:Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market.
In addition to forcing some competitors out of business by flooding the market with money loosing prices temporary, you left out buying the competition that was willing to be bought.
Randicus
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby millpond » 2015-08-29 19:28

Randicus wrote:
macdroid9000 wrote:Microsoft has successfully been able to own the computer market not because they deliver a great product, IMHO, but because they simply flooded the market.
In addition to forcing some competitors out of business by flooding the market with money loosing prices temporary, you left out buying the competition that was willing to be bought.


Should the secret trade treaties ever go through expect to see a sh!tstorm in the online world, especially in the Five Eyes.
They are HEAVILY geared toward *intellectual property rights*.
Think M$ patent claims on Linux.

Start mirroring your favorite repos.
Things could start disappearing, like dvdcss....
millpond
 
Posts: 658
Joined: 2014-06-25 04:56

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby xenios » 2015-08-30 16:18

Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?


Most people I know see/use their computer as an appliance, so the likely answer for them is no... they won't switch.

MS is the johnny-come-lately, inept bungler that's never been as subtle as Apple or Google. Win10 is MS's way to catch up with the level of personal data collection which the other two have been monetizing for years. Most users are happily blind to being used and agree to provide their personal info for free, so those companies can make billions with that info.
xenios
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 2008-11-29 05:40

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2015-08-30 21:19

^I strongly agree with your point. But the thing is, they are already tracking us since we use smart phones. Oh well, the trials of life...

To answer the OP's question (who I respect, love your posts man). No I wouldn't switch to any Windows, not if I'm to use this PC rig that can run only Win XP. I've used WIN 7 on one laptop briefly and it annoyed the crap out of me when i shut it down and it tries to update itself for good 30 minutes.

Sadly, most people are forced to use Windows for MS Office or some other work-based application, like Autocad. Average computer users have no need for MS Windows. You have LibreOffice (a pretty good office replacement for average Joe/Jane) and all audio/video tools that you need on the regular basis. Also, if you are a gamer, buy that console and play your games. Or use Steam ;)

Plenty of good games for GNU/Linux there.
Wheelerof4te
 
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby runfrodorun » 2015-08-30 22:28

Been trying to get my old ma to switch for a while. She cares about not having her data stolen, so I'm like well... that does seem to be the goal of windows 10.

But since that's not enough to make her switch I don't know what is. Good luck converting users to linux! :twisted: :twisted:

edit: OP post is a bit confusing, can't really tell if you're asking if users would switch to linux or from it. I interperited it as to linux. from linux? hell no they're trying to make me use windows at work and I'm not having it. I'm beating down my own path with linux, running the very few things I need with a virtual machine with fake names and stuff

-RJ
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.
runfrodorun
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 2013-06-19 05:09

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-31 01:03

runfrodorun wrote:edit: OP post is a bit confusing, can't really tell if you're asking if users would switch to linux or from it.
Oh yeah, real confusing.
Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?
Would you have ... (Past tense.)
switched to use Debian (How can switch to be confused with switch from?)
Randicus
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-08-31 04:09

edbarx wrote:Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution

I think, my switch from MS Windows was partly due to the fact that at the time of my switch MS Windows was plagued with insecurity and scumware. By scumware I mean, viruses, malware, etc. Open source projects exist for MS Windows as well, this would have meant, the probability of switching would have been far lower. But I am a tinkerer to a limited extent and that also adds to the motivation of using something that allows tinkering.

When I started looking for a unix like system that could run on a PC, I was using MS DOS,
Windows 3.0 was released, but the computer I had could not run it, later I got a newer computer, it came with ms dos 6.22, and also the install disks for windows 3.1, but did not like it, it crashed, so I re-installed the ms dos 6.2, but did not bother with the "windows", I liked the way unix systems appeared and worked, when I was connected , online to a unix system, so I started looking into a unix like system, at that time,
however due to certain circumstances, I completely stopped using any computers, for several years, this was about 1997, about 4 or 5 years later, 2002, aprox. My boss at work bought me a laptop, it came with windows XP pre-installed, I did not like it, it seemed even worse then the earliest versions of windows, and was disappointed, with it, "Where is the Dos prompt ?",..I did find a "terminal" of sorts, but any way, windows xp crashed, I installed "FreeDos", then a friend after reading a comment I made about I would prefer unix, but there were no versions for a PC, well the friend suggested trying linux, so I did, the first "distro" I tried is/was called "knoppix"
then later I tried xubuntu, mint10, when they discontinued support for mint 10, I reluctantly installed mint 13, never really liked it, so that is what led me to try Debian, Squeeze was the current stable release,.. any way, based on what I read when doing searches etc, and also from what I have seen on the rare occasion that I have to use a computer at a library or internet cafe, where they are using windows,
""if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?" There is nothing to show or convince me that these most recent versions of windows are stable, and they do not appear to be of quality, nor dependable,...they seem to be as bad or even worse then the earlier versions.
I know most people seem to like windows, and it is the "most popular", but if I had to decide right now, I still would not use a MS windows OS, ...they are bad news, it is malware.
User avatar
GarryRicketson
 
Posts: 5872
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby runfrodorun » 2015-08-31 11:31

Randicus wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:edit: OP post is a bit confusing, can't really tell if you're asking if users would switch to linux or from it.
Oh yeah, real confusing.
Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?
Would you have ... (Past tense.)
switched to use Debian (How can switch to be confused with switch from?)


It seemed like a lot of people were answering as switch from... plays games with your head. plus where the question's being asked- context matters ;)

Randicus wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:edit: OP post is a bit confusing, can't really tell if you're asking if users would switch to linux or from it.
Oh yeah, real confusing.
Would you have switched to use Debian or any other distribution if you were to decide right now with the current stability, quality and dependability of MS Window 7, 8 and 10?
Would you have ... (Past tense.)
switched to use Debian (How can switch to be confused with switch from?)


No need to get sassy man, totally unnecessary. Even if I'm having a bad day and said something totally wrong, you wouldn't want me to treat you like this... and this isn't one of those cases ;)

-RJ

P.S. had an excrutiating experience with windows 7 the other day... something was up with the power management on a friend's laptop or something. From boot up to shut down, all of about one hour, the PC was so excrutiatingly slow it would take upwards of ten minutes to open things like the file manager or the start menu. I teared up a little bit because I was so proud of microsoft for trying, even if they tripped and crapped their pants!

edit: Totally quoted the wrong person.
Last edited by runfrodorun on 2015-09-15 20:21, edited 2 times in total.
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.
runfrodorun
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 2013-06-19 05:09

Re: Would you have switched to use Debian or any other ....

Postby @zephyr » 2015-09-09 12:45

I keep a copy of Windows 98, 2000, XP,Vista & windumb 7 as coasters for my coffee or beer. -zephyr
ZephyrLinux
User avatar
@zephyr
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 2014-09-17 21:34
Location: Apache, Oklahoma USA

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

fashionable