systemd is destructive

[trinidad]

M51

Looking through your original post unemotionally I offer that you may have a combination of problems here, both praxis and software compatibility which may be caused by several different things.

1) Make sure Thunar is the default file manager in systemd

2) Thunar when logged in as root will persist as root throughout the session requiring log out to reset. This can conflict in a way with systemd like you mention, only resolved with reboots, especially where handling large files (perhaps a bit impatiently) are concerned

3) Perhaps your XFCE version can/needs to be be upgraded

4) Autostart in XFCE and systemd can conflict at specific times because of the Debian normal no root login policy

5) XFCE works well with Ubuntu in highly modified distros like Linux Lite and SolydX, while the compatibility in Debian itself is incomplete.

6) Use a Commander style file manager, or the terminal, to work with large files faster.

7) Debian is not "specifically" designed to work with XFCE these days. You may have better luck on an XFCE forum, or run your XFCE on an Ubuntu based distro.

This is really not a Debian problem, but rather and XFCE problem. Best to let go the past and move on. XFCE is good Linux, and systemd is good Linux. That doesn't mean mixing them together is better Linux.

TC

[M51]

M51

Looking through your original post unemotionally I offer that you may have a combination of problems here, both praxis and software compatibility which may be caused by several different things.

1) Make sure Thunar is the default file manager in systemd

2) Thunar when logged in as root will persist as root throughout the session requiring log out to reset. This can conflict in a way with systemd like you mention, only resolved with reboots, especially where handling large files (perhaps a bit impatiently) are concerned

3) Perhaps your XFCE version can/needs to be be upgraded

4) Autostart in XFCE and systemd can conflict at specific times because of the Debian normal no root login policy

5) XFCE works well with Ubuntu in highly modified distros like Linux Lite and SolydX, while the compatibility in Debian itself is incomplete.

6) Use a Commander style file manager, or the terminal, to work with large files faster.

7) Debian is not "specifically" designed to work with XFCE these days. You may have better luck on an XFCE forum, or run your XFCE on an Ubuntu based distro.

This is really not a Debian problem, but rather and XFCE problem. Best to let go the past and move on. XFCE is good Linux, and systemd is good Linux. That doesn't mean mixing them together is better Linux.

TC

You've got to be kidding me. Almost everything you posted is complete nonsense or irrelevant.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:

Code: Select all

KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?

[M51]

In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:

Code: Select all

KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?

I appreciate you trying to help, but as far as I am concerned the problem is fixed: I removed systemd. My system is completely stable and faster without systemd.

I didn't post to get help (thus the choice of the general discussion forum), but rather just to let people know the issue exists. I did the testing I needed to isolate the problem (systemd) and remove it.
I have no interest in troubleshooting systemd itself, and the chance of systemd ever being PID1 on any of my machines again is precisely zero.

For those who like reading and are of a technical bent:

http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd
http://ewontfix.com/14/
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

[cpoakes]

After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.

Educate yourself. The Debian devs choose systemd as Jessie's default init system and never intended for it to be the only init system. In fact they put a lot of work into designing and coding the systemd-shim to implement the features and formerly independent packages absorbed by systemd with the users choice of init system: sysvinit, openrc, upstart, runit, or even busybox init.

I have no experience with sid or stretch but have heard rumblings this may no longer be true. Can anyone comment?

[golinux]

IIRC systemd-shim came from Cannoical so upstart would work alongside systemd. Now that upstart is no longer, systemd-shim has been orphaned. This from the dng ML in July:

By the way, the systemd-shim package was orphaned in Debian (bug
#832508). Neither the current maintainers nor upstream are interested in
it anymore.

[phenest]

@golinux: Forget phenest; if he were on another forum, he would be known as a "systemd fanboy", with all that entails.
@phenest: Keep on using systemd; you deserve it.

Regards,
Bob

I'm not a fanboy. I can't help it if it works on my system. After all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One day it might break and then I'll fix it.
All I'm trying to do is take an interest in the problems that others are having with systemd. It might prove useful one day. Then again, it probably won't because the only technical data I ever read is: "it's crap" or "it sucks".
But I don't see how it's "destructive". Some have broken systems because of it, but they chose a different init system and all is well again. The default init system in Debian now is systemd. Given there are other choices, what's the need for these threads? If it was the only init system, I'd understand.

[dasein]

I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.

Just for the record, I said no such thing. I've already said everything I feel moved to say regarding systemd in another thread. This thread is just another fact-free fapfest from the egregiously ignorant and misinformed.

If y'all insist on utterly pointless bickering about something you don't really understand, flogging a horse that's not only long dead but badly decomposed, then by all means knock yourselves out. But don't misquote me to do it.

[M51]

I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.

Just for the record, I said no such thing. I've already said everything I feel moved to say regarding systemd in another thread. This thread is just another fact-free fapfest from the egregiously ignorant and misinformed.

If y'all insist on utterly pointless bickering about something you don't really understand, flogging a horse that's not only long dead but badly decomposed, then by all means knock yourselves out. But don't misquote me to do it.

I was the one who said that about systemd because that was the primary symptom it presented on my machine. Someone attributed the statement to you, accidentally I presume.

I agree with almost everything you said in that other thread.

People can deny that the bug I experienced is real if they so choose. I'm sure people will discover systemd's lack of stability the hard way eventually.

I've said all I came to say as well.

[jibberjabber]

by phenest » Given there are other choices, what's the need for these threads?

Trolls get hungry, so they need these kind of threads to feed them.
One good thing about these kind of threads , it helps keep them out of the other threads and topics where Debian Users are really trying to solve the problems
or get help solving the problems they have.
For example,

In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:

Code: Select all

KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?

and then the OP admits they have no interest in learning how to use a system
with systemd, all they are interested in is whining and ranting about how bad
it is.

by M51 » I didn't post to get help (thus the choice of the general discussion forum), but rather just to let people know the issue exists. I did the testing I needed to isolate the problem (systemd) and remove it.
I have no interest in troubleshooting systemd itself, and the chance of systemd ever being PID1 on any of my machines again is precisely zero.

And so finally :

by M51 » I've said all I came to say as well.

Well that is good , glad to hear that, maybe you can mark the topic as solved
or finished or something, and close it.
thank you

[Head_on_a_Stick]

I have no experience with sid or stretch but have heard rumblings this may no longer be true. Can anyone comment?

As golinux mentions, the systemd-shim package has been orphaned:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=832508

I have just installed a fresh sid system and it will boot happily to a console screen under sysvinit (using the orphaned package and following https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianU ... _Jessie.3F), I will try adding a desktop later and report back if there are any problems.

[M51]

by phenest » Given there are other choices, what's the need for these threads?

Trolls get hungry, so they need these kind of threads to feed them.
One good thing about these kind of threads , it helps keep them out of the other threads and topics where Debian Users are really trying to solve the problems
or get help solving the problems they have.
For example,

In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:

Code: Select all

KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?

and then the OP admits they have no interest in learning how to use a system
with systemd, all they are interested in is whining and ranting about how bad
it is.

by M51 » I didn't post to get help (thus the choice of the general discussion forum), but rather just to let people know the issue exists. I did the testing I needed to isolate the problem (systemd) and remove it.
I have no interest in troubleshooting systemd itself, and the chance of systemd ever being PID1 on any of my machines again is precisely zero.

Not a troll you fuckhead, I posted it in general discussion because I didn't need help but was letting other people know the issue exists, that is all. I already solved the problem in the best way possible by removing systemd. I am not interested in troubleshooting why systemd is broken because it is a waste of time. I already know exactly what those settings do and know they won't help. In fact I probably know systemd much better than most of the people around here, which is precisely why I know it's a waste of time.

[dilberts_left_nut]

@M51:
A 'spirited' discussion is ok, profanity and abuse is not - have a week off.

[MALsPa]

In fact I probably know systemd much better than most of the people around here, which is precisely why I know it's a waste of time.

A waste of your time.

Thanks for the info. I don't know squat about the differences between these init systems, and I can't really say that I care, as long as things are working for me (and they are). I do appreciate when people take the time to tell about what they're seeing. It's good to be aware of the fact that systemd is not good for some people. On my computers, Debian seems to be just as good as it's ever been, if not better. I guess we'll all see how things turn out, going forward. Maybe we won't have systemd much longer, or maybe it'll be replaced with a new init system at some point? I guess somebody will get it figured out. No complaints coming from here, but others know a lot more about all of this than I'll ever know. These threads are somewhat entertaining, at least.

[GarryRicketson]

by jibberjabber » Trolls get hungry, so they need these kind of threads to feed them.

I just woke up , and am hungry, so I decided to crawl out from
under my bridge, ................

These are interesting :
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html

and
https://www.maketecheasier.com/systemd- ... now-linux/

I am also a rather cautious person, and "new fangled" things scare me,
so that is why I still use Debian Squeeze, and Wheezy on my system,
How ever, I am interested in learning about new versions , and new systems,
so I installed Debian 8 jessie with systemd , and also Sid as well, on VM's
There are some things I still have trouble understanding about systemd ,
but I have not had anything happen to make me believe it is "destructive",
What is destructive or can be destructive , is when someone that does not
understand the system they are working with, does things without testing
them first on a VM, I did crash the Debian 8 system once, but it was not the
fault of systemd,... it was my own fault for not doing a little more research
first,...
I don't worry about it very much, and pretty much agree with Dasein:

by dasein » If y'all insist on utterly pointless bickering about something you don't really understand, flogging a horse that's not only long dead but badly decomposed, then by all means knock yourselves out.

So any way, guess I am going to go back under my bridge, I am "full"
now,... Thanks for the free meal,....
And if people don't like the "free meal" , really they should just look for
another "soup line", instead of complaining about it,...Or get in their
and volunteer , to help the "cooks" produce a better meal.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

I will try adding a desktop later and report back if there are any problems.

Success!

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=625743#p625743



Runs sweet as a nut, I will have to try it with dwm and a console login to see if I can kill those stray tentacles

EDIT: Aaargh! I hate libinput...

EDIT2: But Wayland is sweet, absolutely no tearing on my Intel laptop, which is a first

[Job]

Head_on_a_Stick, how is your performance? I failed miserably once when I tried removing Systemd. Me think I should give it another shot.

[deborah-and-ian]

Still wondering what the point is of these discussions other than afternoon excitement for tr00 *NIX users, RDUs and basement dwellers.
I mean, the procedure is always the same:

1. you complain about systemd
2. people tell you to report a bug
3. you don't want to report a bug, but spill a diatribe about how evil systemd is
4. people tell you they don't agree with you
5. 3+4 are repeated for 10 long pages until one of the aforementioned basement dwellers either gets their surrogate trolling induced orgasm or a mod closes the thread.
6. nothing is gained. Meanwhile, Devuan takes ages to develop. If all that energy went towards developing/promoting/designing... Let's see... Nah!

[HuangLao]

and yet you found the time to comment on said thread.

[oswaldkelso]

https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_ ... _one_tweet

How to Crash Systemd in One Tweet

The following command, when run as any user, will crash systemd:

Is this true? Any one feeling brave enough or have a spare machine to test it on

Code: Select all

NOTIFY_SOCKET=/run/systemd/notify systemd-notify ""