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Is the future rolling?

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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Danielsan
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Is the future rolling?

#1 Post by Danielsan »

Hi guys, this is just my personal opinion, but for me it's quite clearly the future of the Linux distributions will be rolling. Personally I prefer follow the upstream, however I prefer the Debian approach than the Arch, probably is also because as Debian is older than Arch hence better organized respect the latter, more packages tested and maintained instead to have a big cauldron (I mean AUR) where you can only have trust on these packages available. Without forgetting the primary strength of Debian is within its organization.

Until now the packaging of the binaries has been intended one way only: upgrading; even Arch which is rolling by default is pretty cautious about downgrading. But now two OS, which make use of the Linux kernel, are rolling even if they are offering critical services. I am speaking about Android and Clearlinux, the former don't need presentation the second is the Intel Linux OS flagship, is also the current faster linux distribution due some aggressive optimizations during the compilation, and it serves as Intel business solution for containerization. For someone born under the conviction that only a stable os is useful for critical operations the idea of someone is offering a rolling os for the same scope could sound pretty insane. At least, I think its unusual. I knew that sid is somehow safer than testing but this doesn't mean "stable", however this two OS continue to delivery their binaries as rolling. I don't know if this is better or not, what I thought about it is probably this two OS are simply modern because they provide a simple way to do rollback. So you can install whatever you want and don't have problem to restore a previous package or downgrade and entire system subset if this doesn't work properly.

I believe the role of the maintainers is essential and is the key of many successes reached by Debian and generally by GNU and Linux, anyway Do you believe that Debian, without loosing its nature to aim being a stable OS, should be move forward and to implement a rollback feature? Do you believe the modern rolling distros will replace at a certain point the olders which are based on an elder packaging paradigm?

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#2 Post by Bulkley »

No. There are reasons for having a stable, non-rolling system. That's particularly true of servers. People who crave the newest shiny toy probably should look to an OS that provides it.

At times I wonder if any sort of desktop OS will slide to the background. People like their hand held devices and even smart refrigerators. Thoughts like this make me feel very old so I don't do it often. :)

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#3 Post by HuangLao »

IMO, rolling releases are the domain of testers, packagers some developers and hobbyists. You will not, nor should you see a rolling release anywhere near production boxes, whether a server or workstation. The potential for problems whether a bad upgrade or continuous security holes as the packages cannot be properly vetted is too great a threat for serious work. Now for the the categories already mentioned then have at it. By the way, Debian does have this feature (rolling) its called sid and meets the needs of those mentioned earlier.

We should create a wiki similar to Don't Break Debian, called Stop Trying to turn Debian into other distro's.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#4 Post by GarryRicketson »

by HuangLao » We should create a wiki similar to Don't Break Debian, called Stop Trying to turn Debian into other distro's.
+100

I have no use for a "rolling release". I prefer a good solid. "old stable", system,
that keeps working the same for years.
And without needing to constantly needing to upgrade, then hours of jumping through
hoops to repair the damage done by the udates and upgrades.
That is the main reason I stopped using Linux Mint,.. constantly getting upgrade/update
notices,...etc.
There is no future for a "rolling release" in my future. And there is no future
for "Debi-windows", and "Linux-windows", or any other distros that so many windows
lovers turn Debian into, or try to.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#5 Post by Danielsan »

You don't break anything if rolling back is painless, I knew the importance of a stable system but I think at Intel aren't so stupid to offer a rolling system as their cloud platform.

Basically rolling back means to use bundles instead of packages (snap, flatpack, appimage), even if exist different approaches (Gentoo, Nixos/Guixsd). For my use I don't care if the system is a bit older, until is safe, but the kernel; however I would like to use for some software the latest version also for bug triaging but sometimes it would be preferable having several copies of the same software, I mean the one signed as stable and the latest upstream available. With Debian from the repo you can not have two version of the same software, you can upgrade but downgrade is not always safe.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#6 Post by Segfault »

HuangLao wrote:IMO, rolling releases are the domain of testers, packagers some developers and hobbyists. You will not, nor should you see a rolling release anywhere near production boxes, whether a server or workstation. The potential for problems whether a bad upgrade or continuous security holes as the packages cannot be properly vetted is too great a threat for serious work. Now for the the categories already mentioned then have at it. By the way, Debian does have this feature (rolling) its called sid and meets the needs of those mentioned earlier.
People are running Gentoo server farms and Gentoo is rolling. One node is used as a testbed and binhost for others. If the upgrade works and passes testing then it is distributed to other nodes in binary form, no need to recompile it in every box.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#7 Post by arochester »

Wikipedia - Rolling Distribution
As of March 2012, discussions are ongoing among Debian developers (on Debian developer mailing list) regarding a proposal of developing a rolling release edition of Debian called DebianCUT (DebianCUT unofficial website) — where "CUT" stands for constantly usable testing. This has been suggested to be either a new edition of Debian or to replace (or be a modified or re-branded version of) Debian testing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/debian
What happened with Debian CUT?
Constantly Usable Testing made a lot of headlines in 2011, but the (unofficial) site is gone and a cursory DDG did not reveal any trombones.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#8 Post by Danielsan »

WOW, I completely removed about Debian CUT, it would be really cool indeed, however without a rollback feature we would have something still incomplete.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#9 Post by Bulkley »

GarryRicketson wrote:I have no use for a "rolling release". I prefer a good solid. "old stable", system,
that keeps working the same for years.
I love having two machines. One runs Old-Stable, Wheezy, because it has to work - no excuses, it has to work. The other runs Testing so I can play; if I break it the world doesn't end.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#10 Post by GarryRicketson »

I have some extra laptops, I use for experimenting also. But for a server, and
my main desktop, I need a reliable system.
Also use VM's, for the "experimenting".

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#11 Post by vbrummond »

Rolling is good because a lot of hardware is in production and Linux barely scrapes by support for it bit by bit. A lot of code is designed to be usable with each release, so it's not like a distribution running constantly in beta. The problem is when you have a device and it works exactly as intended, is it really worth disruption and potential problems to upgrade for a few percents of performance? Nope.
Always on Debian Testing

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#12 Post by cpoakes »

I'll wager Betteridge's Law applies to forum topics too: No.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#13 Post by mor »

I would like to add that stability is not reliability.
For a server and other delicate production machines not having software constantly change is also of the utmost importance.
When downtime means money being lost by the minute, even something as trivial (well, for a desktop adventurer) as having to check and maybe update a script, is simply not acceptable.
Being able to roll back with relative ease is totally irrelevant when you don't want to upgrade in the first place.

This is what a stable system means, the reliability is a byproduct.

Bye

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#14 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Danielsan wrote:Do you believe that Debian, without loosing its nature to aim being a stable OS, should be move forward and to implement a rollback feature?
No, I don't think that the release model should be changed.

EDIT: anyway, Debian already has a rollback system, they stole it from openSUSE :mrgreen:
Do you believe the modern rolling distros will replace at a certain point the olders which are based on an elder packaging paradigm?
No.
deadbang

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#15 Post by Nili »

I mainly prefer the way it is, stable debian. If i had in hurry there is testing/sid. If'm obsessed for rolls there is Gentoo, Arch and many others on web.
openSUSE Tumbleweed KDE/Wayland

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#16 Post by kedaha »

Danielsan wrote:Do you believe that Debian, without loosing its nature to aim being a stable OS, should be move forward and to implement a rollback feature?
A rollback feature would be an advantage to desktop users of, say, a distro based on sid. But stable will always be Debian's core distribution and it cannot be otherwise because its primary use is for servers, not desktop fun and games.
Danielsan wrote: Do you believe the modern rolling distros will replace at a certain point the olders which are based on an elder packaging paradigm?
The latest versions and eternal updates, seen perhaps by most final users as a desirable feature of os's like Windows, Ubuntu and Android are the last thing systems admins want on their servers. Debian stable will never be replaced by a rolling distribution.
DebianStable

Code: Select all

$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#17 Post by HuangLao »

Segfault wrote:
HuangLao wrote:IMO, rolling releases are the domain of testers, packagers some developers and hobbyists. You will not, nor should you see a rolling release anywhere near production boxes, whether a server or workstation. The potential for problems whether a bad upgrade or continuous security holes as the packages cannot be properly vetted is too great a threat for serious work. Now for the the categories already mentioned then have at it. By the way, Debian does have this feature (rolling) its called sid and meets the needs of those mentioned earlier.
People are running Gentoo server farms and Gentoo is rolling. One node is used as a testbed and binhost for others. If the upgrade works and passes testing then it is distributed to other nodes in binary form, no need to recompile it in every box.

Those people are ill advised.

Anyway, its very simple, instead of trying to change a distro, use a distro that is already designed for that specific purpose. If someone likes "rolling", which is actually a misnomer as it assumes the logical plane is a straight line, what happens when the location between two points is a hill (be that up or down)...I digress, if someone likes rolling, use a rolling distro, you like stable seek out one of the numerous stable (ish) distros, you like FSF use FSF, etc....

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#18 Post by HuangLao »

kedaha wrote:
Danielsan wrote:Do you believe that Debian, without loosing its nature to aim being a stable OS, should be move forward and to implement a rollback feature?
A rollback feature would be an advantage to desktop users of, say, a distro based on sid. But stable will always be Debian's core distribution and it cannot be otherwise because its primary use is for servers, not desktop fun and games.
Danielsan wrote: Do you believe the modern rolling distros will replace at a certain point the olders which are based on an elder packaging paradigm?
The latest versions and eternal updates, seen perhaps by most final users as a desirable feature of os's like Windows, Ubuntu and Android are the last thing systems admins want on their servers. Debian stable will never be replaced by a rolling distribution.
If Ubuntu refugees keep flooding the Debian borders who knows what the future holds. Where is that big Stable Wall around Debianland? Smashed by ssssystemd? joking, no thread hijacking intended. :lol:

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#19 Post by debiman »

DanielSan, yes, get that hot blood in motion!
the passion of youth!
but why waste that on an operating system, of all things? go out, change society in the real world! kiss a (whatever your sexual preference)!
:lol:

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Re: Is the future rolling?

#20 Post by Danielsan »

debiman wrote:DanielSan, yes, get that hot blood in motion!
the passion of youth!
but why waste that on an operating system, of all things? go out, change society in the real world! kiss a (whatever your sexual preference)!
:lol:
Sorry I didn't get you... :oops:
Maybe because I am start to be really old... :lol:

Anyway Debian can be stable even if decides to implement rollback feature which allows to be a fully rolling, one doesn't exclude the other, but APT must be redesigned.
For example Clear linux uses something similar to the bundle, but the bundles are progressives so the package manager updates only what is really changed not the entire bundle, I believe this really cool indeed. Guixsd allows to install several versions of the same software in user space so you don't even need to be root, this is another cool feature.

Eventually when the latter will be ready for production will be a very interesting distro completely FSF compliance.

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