Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby pawRoot » 2017-01-20 19:00

dasein wrote:So when this OP falsely claims that he spent "two hours" at Google, he's actually betraying the fact that he didn't spend so much as a moment there. (Either that, or he never actually learned to tell time.)


I never said i spent 2 hours on that particular topic, but i did on others. And then i'm told to go to Debian wiki...

Here is one of examples, my post about problems with Steam on Debian,
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=131139

I even said:

I'm fighting with Steam on Debian since longer time
(which was like 4 days or something)

And then i get an answer like that:

GarryRicketson wrote:In the meantime, while waiting for a answer, you might find something
useful in one of these threads, on the forum:

Search found 1151 matches: +Can't +run +Steam

after running Steam i am getting error:

Fatal Error: Failed to load steamui.so


Also, often just doing a search using the error message as keywords:
Failed to load steamui.so on Debian testing

Have you looked at this ?
https://wiki.debian.org/Steam


Second thing is, sometimes there is hundreds of solutions to a fix on Google, but many solutions are from people who are not experienced in Linux, and while they might work, they might break my system in future (since im quite new to Linux aswell), like adding 3rd party repositories, installing wrong libraries, and so on.

Not everyone on this forum sits 10 hours a day at his Debian desktop since 1990 and knows what's proper and what isn't.

I understand that you might want people to post less topics if this forum was super popular with millions of users posting every 2min, but this forum is pretty much dead compared to other forums, and you still banish people for posting their problem.

I remember about (10 years ago ?) , there was official polish forums for Ubuntu, and the community was the same, always sending to google, attacking people etc. , in the end most people went back to Windows because they didn't want to loose their nerves posting topics on forums like that again.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby Thorny » 2017-01-21 10:02

As I wrote to you in the other topic, you can choose to learn from criticism, or not. The choice is yours. In addition, people can choose to help you, or not. That choice is theirs. They also get to choose what they think will help you most.

Playing Internet lawyer and arguing your point like you are doing is not likely to be very productive because you risk alienating some of the most knowledgable and experienced people here who could help you.

Being part of a community doesn't just mean posting there, it also means being familiar with the conventions of the community. For example, things like this post from a forum administrator, "Please Read.. What we expect you have already Done". viewtopic.php?f=30&t=47078 If you ask questions that indicate your effort, true effort, you might find more people willing to help you.

Clearly you are frustrated, that is understandable but complaining about being badly treated (the moderators will handle any bad treatment) and continuing to write remarks scorning the forum isn't likely to help you to get help. When you find the "hundreds of solutions" and don't know what is "proper", then cite what you have found and where you found it and ask what is "proper". When you have read a manual page and don't understand part of it, state that and ask about it.

You state that you are "quite new to Linux", then later you mention an official polish forum for Ubuntu 10 years ago and your complaints about it. I find that a little confusing. Much the same way that I find it confusing that someone with your skill level is trying to run the testing version of Debian.

When you have to ask for help it is wise to leave your ego aside and try to understand what is being offered to you.

Good luck.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby pawRoot » 2017-01-21 17:39

Thorny wrote:As I wrote to you in the other topic, you can choose to learn from criticism

I can learn from criticism, but not criticism like "go and install Windows", which i mentioned a few times already.


Thorny wrote:You state that you are "quite new to Linux", then later you mention an official polish forum for Ubuntu 10 years ago and your complaints about it.


Yes i tried Ubuntu many years ago, but back then it was hard to get anything working, alot of bugs etc., so i went back to Windows and OS X.
Anyway i think continuing this topic anymore is pointless, i don't want to fight with anyone here
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby HuangLao » 2017-01-21 20:39

pawRoot wrote:
Thorny wrote:As I wrote to you in the other topic, you can choose to learn from criticism

I can learn from criticism, but not criticism like "go and install Windows", which i mentioned a few times already.


Thorny wrote:You state that you are "quite new to Linux", then later you mention an official polish forum for Ubuntu 10 years ago and your complaints about it.


Yes i tried Ubuntu many years ago, but back then it was hard to get anything working, alot of bugs etc., so i went back to Windows and OS X.
Anyway i think continuing this topic anymore is pointless, i don't want to fight with anyone here



If you cannot solve issues like this or know where to find answers, why on Earth are you using testing?
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby pawRoot » 2017-01-21 20:41

For newer packages
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby HuangLao » 2017-01-21 20:56

pawRoot wrote:For newer packages



testing is not for "newer packages" it means you "intend" to be a tester, ie: bug reporter ie: help us squash these roaches before it reaches stable. Newer packages is a "bonus", first question to ask before running testing or sid should be: Will I debug problems or report them, will I be actively engaged in Debian testing/development? If you are in it for the free ride of newer packages, then you might be better off with Ubuntu, since we usually do not provide much help to users of versions that should know what they are getting themselves into.

:idea:
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby pawRoot » 2017-01-21 21:55

I thought that Debian is a free ride ;)

I doesn't say on the webpage anything like, YOU MUST do anything if you use testing version.

Also i haven't noticed any bugs since using testing, so what do you want me to report? obviously if i see some bug i will post it here

If you don't like the idea of "free ride" maybe you should look for a job at Microsoft

P.S

As i said this topic is pointless so we all would be better if you just close it
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby HuangLao » 2017-01-21 22:02

pawRoot wrote:I thought that Debian is a free ride ;)

I doesn't say on the webpage anything like, YOU MUST do anything if you use testing version.

Also i haven't noticed any bugs since using testing, so what do you want me to report? obviously if i see some bug i will post it here

If you don't like the idea of "free ride" maybe you should look for a job at Microsoft

P.S

As i said this topic is pointless so we all would be better if you just close it


Not freeride as in beer or even Libre, I meant needing to put in work.

regarding bugs: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/apt-listbugs
https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby pawRoot » 2017-01-21 22:05

As i said, if i notice any bugs i will report them, will check the links you posted.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby phenest » 2017-01-29 23:42

Thorny wrote:In addition, people can choose to help you, or not. That choice is theirs. They also get to choose what they think will help you most.

I disagree.
It's like when you don't know how to spell a word, and someone says to look it up in a dictionary. It would be so much easier to just spell the word for them. Or when someone has a problem with Gnome, and the reply is to try KDE instead. I don't know why people think that's helpful.

Don't choose what help to give someone. Just answer the damn question. Or not, if you don't know.

Thorny wrote:Playing Internet lawyer and arguing your point like you are doing is not likely to be very productive because you risk alienating some of the most knowledgable and experienced people here who could help you.

Clearly you are frustrated, that is understandable but complaining about being badly treated (the moderators will handle any bad treatment) and continuing to write remarks scorning the forum isn't likely to help you to get help.

@pawRoot: But I do agree with this comment. If someone gives an answer, don't complain it's no good. We don't know what you're thinking, and sometimes it takes a little longer to answer the trickier questions. And sometimes it's difficult to give a concise answer when the OP isn't forthcoming with details. And sometimes we're at work or asleep and are blissfully unaware you've posted a question.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby Thorny » 2017-01-30 12:41

phenest wrote:I disagree.
...
Don't choose what help to give someone. Just answer the damn question. Or not, if you don't know.

Well, I can play Internet lawyer with this one. Suppose someone asks, how do I install <choose a distro name>kernel or <choose some package of the incorrect version from another distro> on my Debian stable system? Using your logic if one knows how it could actually be accomplished, that's how the question should be answered. Whereas, the answer that might be of the most help to a poster like that could be, don't break Debian.

You are a knowledgable poster, I don't understand why you didn't consider that in your supposed rebuttal to my comment. I don't want to get into an argument with you, lets just disagree on this point.

The bottom line, helpers do get to choose what they think is going to be the most help. Choose wisely.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-01-30 15:57

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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby phenest » 2017-01-30 16:52

Thorny wrote:
phenest wrote:I disagree.
...
Don't choose what help to give someone. Just answer the damn question. Or not, if you don't know.

Well, I can play Internet lawyer with this one.
...
You are a knowledgable poster, I don't understand why you didn't consider that in your supposed rebuttal to my comment. I don't want to get into an argument with you, lets just disagree on this point.

Perhaps you could quote me better and show the point I made. If someone asks a question relating to Gnome, don't try to suggest KDE as a solution. And if I have a question that you don't know the answer to, don't tell me to go and research it as that's why the question is being asked in the first place (probably).

Perhaps what I should have said was answers need to be directly related to the question. But that doesn't change my original reply. Replies should answer the question being asked. Suggesting that you choose what help to give someone isn't necessarily answering their question.

I doubt you or I have given an reply that isn't what we consider helpful or useful, but you know how threads go. One minute you're talking about wi-fi connections and then someone else chimes in about systemd.

Users get a bee in their bonnet about some issue or query, and want a specific answer. I get like that sometimes and I know what sort of answer I'd appreciate.
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Re: Moved to Offtopic, for discussion

Postby millpond » 2017-02-09 19:00

I dont have a dog in this fight, but a few observations:

Google blows chunks at dealing with Linux problems, since the search listings return so much data that is either outdated, inappropriate to version/distro, missing, or wrong.

Asking a question on a forum like this is not laziness, as much as it is educational for all the forum. Indeed I found alot about fonts from this single thread alone.

RTFM can also quite pointless when much of the instructions are in technobabble and presume a Computer Science degree. The man pages are especially dreadful, for example. And for obfuscation enshrined, try CPAN.

There is the eternal problem of Linux as a public network OS vs that of a single user system. I have a single user network here, where much of the 'security' is overkill, and counterproductive. Like preventing'users' from accessing hardware.

The real dichotomy between Win and Linux is that of corporate interests vs personal freedom. The reality is that I run Win apps on Linux, and that my Win systems are mostly Posix (Cygwin has a larger footprint than the Redmond garbage). Point here is that if someone wants the Win interface on a Gnome system, it is not a 'problem' - simply a choice which *should* be availabe to any linux user.

ESL - for many folks here English is not a primary language, and reading technical materials in it can be especially onerous. English is my *only* tongue, and after being with Linux on and off for 25 years, alot of its docs still confuse the hell out of me. Xorg, anyone???

The greybeards here can be cranky old gits, but if you can get them to answer a straight question, the answer is usually more than worth the efforts involved.

The original Linux culture was a bunch of basement dwelling propellorheads, and some of that elitism still infests the forums. However, once you understand the autistic nature of some of the key figures (the epitome being Richard Sttallman) then alot of it is not only understandable, but enjoyable.
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