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Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

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annadane
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Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#1 Post by annadane »

Out of principle, I suppose, or for security reasons. I suppose if a given contrib software is in the repo (ie, simply adding "contrib" to your sources.list works) then it's been properly vetted. Non free software in the repos is more of a concern but I expect contrib to be more reliable in that sense

oysterboy
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#2 Post by oysterboy »

I do avoid contrib and non-free, out of principle. Will only (and very grudgingly) make an exception if some piece of hardware (e.g wifi card) cannot function at all without non-free firmware. What I like about Debian is that non-free software is clearly identified as such, and that no non-free software is installed without my being aware of it.

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sjukfan
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#3 Post by sjukfan »

Only slightly. I spend more energy on avoiding things that isn't in the Debian repositories (looking at you docker). But if possible I'll always go for open source.
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No_windows
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#4 Post by No_windows »

Not really....... I use Virtualbox, although I've now switched to Oracles own repo.

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#5 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Code: Select all

empty@Helium:~ $ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on Helium!  rms would be proud.
empty@Helium:~ $
:)

QEMU > VirtualBox, Chromium > Chrome, bsdgames > Steam

Well, maybe not the last one but you get the idea :mrgreen:
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pendrachken
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#6 Post by pendrachken »

Do I avoid non-free or contrib? NO!

Why you ask? Because I use my machines for real work, not out of some sense of zealotry.
If there is a FOSS solution that works I use it, but if a proprietary solution works better for what I need... well then I will use that. I have way too much to do, and can't waste time poking and prodding some FOSS thing that can only do 80-90% of what I need when another program ( that happens to be proprietary ) can do 95-100% of what I need.
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mor
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#7 Post by mor »

pendrachken wrote:Do I avoid non-free or contrib? NO!

Why you ask? Because I use my machines for real work, not out of some sense of zealotry.
Is not buying blood diamonds a form of zealotry?
Or maybe buying only fair trade products?

A comment like this betrays a pretty unfair attitude, especially from someone who, for whatever reason, is indeed benefiting from the fruit of what you call zealotry.
Kinda like getting all excited and proud for getting -say- energy efficient lights for a house and then saying "hey, I need my <insert brand of manufacturer who exploits cheap third world labor> shoes to train".

You might not be using Debian for ethical reasons and that's fine, you're welcome too, but believing that free software is the right thing is exactly what made Debian possible, and most importantly making sacrifices, such as bending over backward to do actual work (yes, even those who use only free software do actual work!) without choosing personal convenience over principle, is what makes the difference between doing the right thing and just being there to witness it.

I am alas one of those who still uses some non free stuff so I'm not being holier than thou here, but I certainly look up to those who can hack it, not down.

Bye :)

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#8 Post by pendrachken »

mor wrote:
pendrachken wrote:Do I avoid non-free or contrib? NO!

Why you ask? Because I use my machines for real work, not out of some sense of zealotry.
Is not buying blood diamonds a form of zealotry?
Or maybe buying only fair trade products?

A comment like this betrays a pretty unfair attitude, especially from someone who, for whatever reason, is indeed benefiting from the fruit of what you call zealotry.
Kinda like getting all excited and proud for getting -say- energy efficient lights for a house and then saying "hey, I need my <insert brand of manufacturer who exploits cheap third world labor> shoes to train".

You might not be using Debian for ethical reasons and that's fine, you're welcome too, but believing that free software is the right thing is exactly what made Debian possible, and most importantly making sacrifices, such as bending over backward to do actual work (yes, even those who use only free software do actual work!) without choosing personal convenience over principle, is what makes the difference between doing the right thing and just being there to witness it.

I am alas one of those who still uses some non free stuff so I'm not being holier than thou here, but I certainly look up to those who can hack it, not down.

Bye :)
Nice false dichotomies and strawmen. Unfortunately your argument is missing, well, the whole argument if you take them away. Using proprietary software hurts no-one; well supposedly it hurts ME according to RMS, but I haven't noticed anything more than the slight ache of "damn, wish this was $0.00".

As for "people who don't choose personal convenience over principle", their work suffers for it. Period. By definition even. If a person uses something that doesn't do the job fully, just because it is "open" that person is a fool.
That would be like me using H2SO4 instead of HCL in my lab... because "they are both acids and will dissolve stuff", never minding the fact that I need to run further reactions that require Cl- ions from the HCL in the solution that was originally called for...
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#9 Post by debiman »

me:
leans back with a tub of popcorn.
a great show is about to begin!
:popcorn:

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#10 Post by kedaha »

Do I avoid non-free software? Absolutely!
How can you know exactly what non-free software does in your Linux system? The answer is one can't so it's the last thing I want on my server & indeed on my desktop system.
Apart from that, on principle, I'd cheerfully see Debian ditch the non-free stuff and leave it to Ubunto & similar distros with proprietary leanings. But I have used such software in the past but I don't need it now & don't want it. Similarly I once used Windows but will never go back to it.
DebianStable

Code: Select all

$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

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sjukfan
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#11 Post by sjukfan »

Try to just don't be a **** about your choice, it's a lot easier that way.

Wrong way
I don't use <insert software> because only Hitler uses that.
Correct way
I don't use <insert software> because I don't think it fulfils my needs.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#12 Post by NFT5 »

pendrachken wrote:Do I avoid non-free or contrib? NO!

Why you ask? Because I use my machines for real work, not out of some sense of zealotry.
If there is a FOSS solution that works I use it, but if a proprietary solution works better for what I need... well then I will use that. I have way too much to do, and can't waste time poking and prodding some FOSS thing that can only do 80-90% of what I need when another program ( that happens to be proprietary ) can do 95-100% of what I need.
I take much the same approach, although I tend to justify on slightly more practical, I think, grounds. If it were just me then I might lean more towards free software but I need to consider the capacities and needs of other others, be they employees or family. They don't care. They just want software that works and when it doesn't then I'm the one who has to fix it. I really don't have time to do that, I'm not a full time help desk, so I look for the best solution. FOSS gets first choice and preference when it can even do the job 90% as well as non-free, provided it causes no problems. If it causes any grief or a reduction in productivity then I'll move to an alternate solution.

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mor
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#13 Post by mor »

debiman wrote:me:
leans back with a tub of popcorn.
a great show is about to begin!
:popcorn:
I wonder if you said so just because the situation is clearly prone to be the beginning of a show or because it's me involved. Either way thank you because your comment has undoubtedly influenced me in keeping my reply short and to the point.

Anyway, ready your popcorn. ;)

@pendrachken
You said I used a few false dichotomies in my reply and I honestly wonder where did you see them.
I hope you're not referring to my examples about fair trade and shoes, because those are not dichotomies, they are analogies, used as examples of similar situations, not as counterarguments.
A false dichotomy, and a blatantly ridiculous one, would have been: either you think free software is good, and you're good person, or you don't and you're a bad person, but I never said anything like that.
But then again, please educate me about dichotomies. :lol:

And since we're talking fallacies, where would the straw men (men, plural, you mean that there is more than one?) be?
A straw man is defined as the refutation (or rather the attempt at refuting) of someone's argument, opinion, idea by attacking something entirely different and often irrelevant that he or she is not even saying.

The only thing that I have attacked is your attitude, I haven't gone to the extent of rebutting your argument (well, your statement, not much of an argument there).
I may have made incorrect inferences from your words (unlikely) that made me see attitude where there wasn't any, but that's not a straw man either.

So, what were you saying about fallacies?
Did you mention those two just because they are the ones you remembered the names of?
Want to review your reply?

Bye :)

annadane
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#14 Post by annadane »

kedaha wrote:Do I avoid non-free software? Absolutely!
How can you know exactly what non-free software does in your Linux system? The answer is one can't so it's the last thing I want on my server & indeed on my desktop system.
Apart from that, on principle, I'd cheerfully see Debian ditch the non-free stuff and leave it to Ubunto & similar distros with proprietary leanings. But I have used such software in the past but I don't need it now & don't want it. Similarly I once used Windows but will never go back to it.
How do you feel about contrib?

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#15 Post by pendrachken »

mor wrote:
debiman wrote:me:
leans back with a tub of popcorn.
a great show is about to begin!
:popcorn:
I wonder if you said so just because the situation is clearly prone to be the beginning of a show or because it's me involved. Either way thank you because your comment has undoubtedly influenced me in keeping my reply short and to the point.

Anyway, ready your popcorn. ;)

@pendrachken
You said I used a few false dichotomies in my reply and I honestly wonder where did you see them.
I hope you're not referring to my examples about fair trade and shoes, because those are not dichotomies, they are analogies, used as examples of similar situations, not as counterarguments.
A false dichotomy, and a blatantly ridiculous one, would have been: either you think free software is good, and you're good person, or you don't and you're a bad person, but I never said anything like that.
But then again, please educate me about dichotomies. :lol:

And since we're talking fallacies, where would the straw men (men, plural, you mean that there is more than one?) be?
A straw man is defined as the refutation (or rather the attempt at refuting) of someone's argument, opinion, idea by attacking something entirely different and often irrelevant that he or she is not even saying.

The only thing that I have attacked is your attitude, I haven't gone to the extent of rebutting your argument (well, your statement, not much of an argument there).
I may have made incorrect inferences from your words (unlikely) that made me see attitude where there wasn't any, but that's not a straw man either.

So, what were you saying about fallacies?
Did you mention those two just because they are the ones you remembered the names of?
Want to review your reply?

Bye :)
Lets see:

Code: Select all

 
Is not buying blood diamonds a form of zealotry?
Or maybe buying only fair trade products?
False dichotomy - at the very least insinuating that using non-free software is the same as purchasing products made from others suffering. Also a somewhat of a strawman argument as human suffering / exploitation wasn't mentioned in the original argument, as well as a character attack since non-free software is being equated with products that are founded on human suffering.

As an aside, non-free software is almost always written by people getting paid a living wage. FOSS may or not be written by people getting paid for their time. While it may be true that it is a so called "labor of love", it can also be argued that by only using said software and not contributing back, you are exploiting the people who wrote the programs, therefore a user of FOSS that doesn't contribute back to the project is in essence similar to those who exploit others I.E. your blood diamonds / fair trade statements.

Code: Select all

A comment like this betrays a pretty unfair attitude, especially from someone who, for whatever reason, is indeed benefiting from the fruit of what you call zealotry.
Kinda like getting all excited and proud for getting -say- energy efficient lights for a house and then saying "hey, I need my <insert brand of manufacturer who exploits cheap third world labor> shoes to train".


Yes, it's unfair to not fit in with what the masses around you in the world think. Oh wait, if that was true it is unlikely that America would exist due to everyone being an English Protestant, OR that right now I should convert to Christianity ( catholic ) because that is what most people in my state are. Read up on democratic tyranny by Alexis de Tocqueville to see why this is a bad idea, whether by FOSS zealots, or anti-FOSS zealots.

As a further aside, I have contributed back to the Debian release. I found the reason behind a release showstopper bug that was actually so simple it was overlooked. When KDE 4.x was set to be released to the next stable almost all upgrades from 3.x > 4.x lost sound, while fresh installs had no problems. There was a simple dependency issue with upgrades not having a dependency listed for phonon-backend that was fulfilled by the fresh base install.

As for the shoes - same thing as the previous answer as to why it is both a false dichotomy and strawman / character attack.

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You might not be using Debian for ethical reasons and that's fine, you're welcome too, but believing that free software is the right thing is exactly what made Debian possible......
What made Debian possible was people decided they wanted to put together a bunch of software into a cohesive whole. Being FOSS only made it easier, not made it possible, as even if the whole distribution was non-free it would still be possible to do - all you would have to do is get permission / not violate licensing ( see BSD, it is considered not "free" since anyone can release closed source compiles without contributing back).

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A straw man is defined as the refutation (or rather the attempt at refuting) of someone's argument, opinion, idea by attacking something entirely different and often irrelevant that he or she is not even saying.
Actually a strawman argument is giving the impression that you are refuting an argument put out by the opposing side, all the while you are refuting an argument not put out by the opposing side - I.E. me saying I don't use FOSS if it doesn't fulfill my needs to at least a certain percentage, and then you arguing about blood diamonds and fair trade.

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So, what were you saying about fallacies?
Did you mention those two just because they are the ones you remembered the names of?
I teach Logic and Philosophy part time ( my rates are reasonable if you want :lol: ) and Science the rest of the time, I could write entire essays on what you have said to refute you, but this forum is not the place for that. Needless to say I remember a few more fallacies and / or argument styles than the ones I have pointed out.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#16 Post by kedaha »

annadane wrote:
kedaha wrote:Do I avoid non-free software? Absolutely!...
How do you feel about contrib?
Same as non-free. As advised by debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_debian_is_100_free_software:
Users should be aware of the risks of using packages in the non-free and contrib areas:

•lack of freedom for such software packages

•lack of support from Debian on such software packages (Debian can't support software properly without having access to its source code.)

•contamination of your 100% free Debian system
DebianStable

Code: Select all

$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#17 Post by GarryRicketson »

Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?
Yes, some people do avoid contrib or non free software , and they all have their reasons, and I suppose to each one, what ever reason they have is valid, at least in their mind.

Others do use contrib or non free software, and the same, they all have their reasons.

If a package or type of program, "software", is not in the Debian repositories and it is needed for the kind of work a person does, well it is logical to do what is necessary to do ones work, and it is normal for people to take the easiest route. Others prefer, and enjoy the "scenic" route.
Then there is also the rewards one experiences being creative, and perhaps actually creating the script, or "program" they need.

So any way, to answer the question in the topic title,..yes some people here do avoid using contrib or non free software.

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#18 Post by aplistir »

I don't avoid them.

I avoid programs that cost money or are pirated.

Of-course, if there is an important program, that I need, then I am ready to pay for it.

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#19 Post by debiman »

mor wrote:...or because it's me involved.
are you really that narcissistic?

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

#20 Post by mor »

debiman wrote:
mor wrote:...or because it's me involved.
are you really that narcissistic?
Oh come on debiman, give a man at least the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, yes, one could have definitely read it that way and, had I phrased it differently, like speaking of my history of longwinded and argumentative discussions here instead of assuming one would figure it out, would have helped you not getting to that conclusion, however, as you said, how monumentally narcissistic would one need to be to mean it that way?
My point is: would me being the most narcissistic person be the likeliest of scenarios in the absence of any other indication pointing that way? Or did I give any reason to lean that way, have I ever said or done anything here or elsewhere to support the preconceived bias of me being so self centered rather than, ehm, any other possibility? ;)

In truth, I'm just self conscious about my proneness to let the flow of words go wild, and I figured you might have witnessed some of my forays here.
Yes, it is kinda narcissistic too to think anyone even registered me as a presence here, especially considering how poor my contribution to actual problem solving has been, however no, come on, just because my crap doesn't stink it doesn't mean that I think the world revolves around me. :P

@pendachandran
First of all let me apologies for the general tone of my previous reply, in hindsight I recognize I was unnecessarily hostile and if anything I should have just tried to go over the point where I wasn't clear instead of focusing on the problem of fallacies.

A dear friend was so kind to give me a different perspective on the matter, and for that I was able to understand your point better and most importantly get a deeper understanding about the way I communicate with people. Without going into details, especially because I still have work to do on it, I tend to overemphasize certain concepts in a way that distracts and deviates the attention from the real issue.
The point is in fact that with my rhetoric expedient I made you focus on the notion that there is a moral equivalency between buying blood diamonds or exploiting cheap labor and the use of proprietary software, when I was thinking about another aspect in making that analogy (more on it in a second).

So, sorry for having been too hasty in judging your response as technically incorrect, which it wasn't.
I do however still stand by my original criticism of your statement, which I hope I will clear up now.

When I made the blood diamond/fair trade example, I was trying to point out that regardless of their respective moral weights, in order to dismiss either of those as forms of zealotry, which I'm sure some people would even in the case of blood diamond/fair trade (think about anything in electronics and yes, there are blood components in all of them), one would need something more objective than his own personal sense of how one matter is "worth the trouble" and the other isn't.
Making the analogy with something on a obvious higher moral ground than the use of proprietary software (even though it would be interesting to at least explore the thought in a new discussion) was exactly the reason I chose it.
Had I used the example of -say- only wearing pointy hats wouldn't have been convincing enough, I believe, even though the point of not calling it zealotry would still be the same.
Unfortunately, it was so glaring with me that I wasn't meaning it as a moral equivalency, that I couldn't think one would misunderstand, and with it think I was making a case against proprietary software and those who use it, instead than just the improper use of the word zealotry.

The reason why I criticized your statement in the first place in fact, is simply because when you said that you don't avoid non-free for a sense of zealotry because you do real work with your computer, I inferred (and I think it was a pretty fair inference) that you meant that trying to respect software freedom is a vain endeavor at best, an excess and a form of zealotry indeed, one that only those who have no real stuff on their plate can afford to be devoting time to.
If this was a mistaken inference at first, I think you've made it abundantly clear in you subsequent message that it is indeed what you think, which is fine by me for you to say, however I had to respond to.

Because to call that kind of commitment zealotry is definitely unwarranted, just as it would be and it is in fact, to call it zealotry when it is a matter of diamonds or other materials that fund wars and genocide or exploit third world and child labor, or even just when it is a matter of committing to some silly idea unworthy of being compared to these serious issues, granted of course that it doesn't transcend into forcing others in committing to it too, which would be fanaticism, zealotry indeed.

I hope I've made myself clear, if not, well, I don't know.

Bye and take care.

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