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Wow. Really?

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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dilberts_left_nut
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Re: Wow. Really?

#21 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

golinux wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Does Devuan Jessie support

apt-get update;apt-get install systemd-sysv

upgrade? :)
Why on earth would Devuan want to do that?!
init freedom ? ... :)
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Re: Wow. Really?

#22 Post by golinux »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
golinux wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Does Devuan Jessie support

apt-get update;apt-get install systemd-sysv

upgrade? :)
Why on earth would Devuan want to do that?!
init freedom ? ... :)
That depends what you consider 'init freedom'. :P And that is why the announcement concludes with this:
Init Freedom

Devuan is about choice. We think people should be able to choose whether to use a GNU+Linux system with or without systemd.

Devuan decided to fork not only the base distribution, but also its governance, because Debian has made it difficult to avoid systemd as init, entangling the system with unnecessary dependencies and did so despite widespread community concern. We encourage potential Devuan users who wish to install systemd to use Debian’s installer, Debian’s packages and Debian’s mailing lists, all available directly from Debian’s mirrors.
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Re: Wow. Really?

#23 Post by phenest »

But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
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Re: Wow. Really?

#24 Post by None1975 »

phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
For God's sake, why?
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Re: Wow. Really?

#25 Post by GarryRicketson »

ruffwoof wrote:Does Devuan Jessie support

apt-get update;apt-get install systemd-sysv

upgrade? :)
I don't think the OP here, understands or knows what Devaun Jessie really is,
hence, the question,....
To try to clarify, Devaun Jessie is a "fork", of Debian Jessie, the developers of
Devaun went through some great effort to remove systemd, this is what makes
Devaun distinctly different, if one wants systemd, then they should not use Devaun,
they should use Debian Jessie, it installs with systemd by default.
If you do not want sytemd, one option is to install Devaun Jessie, when you update and when upgrades are available, you would want to use the Devaun repositories , and keep
it non-systemd, trying to mix the 2 would lead to all sorts of problems, and trying to add
systemd to it would be pointless, since the systemd version of Debian Jessie is available.
Questions and discussion about Devaun Jessie really should be asked here :
https://dev1galaxy.org/
That is where you will find the people involved with it's development and that know
more about this.

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Re: Wow. Really?

#26 Post by ruffwoof »

GarryRicketson wrote:
ruffwoof wrote:Does Devuan Jessie support

apt-get update;apt-get install systemd-sysv

upgrade? :)
I don't think the OP here, understands or knows what Devaun Jessie really is,
hence, the question,....
It was a rhetorical question ... spoken (written) in jest (hence the smiley).

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Re: Wow. Really?

#27 Post by phenest »

None1975 wrote:
phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
For God's sake, why?
My question isn't rhetorical. I don't want to do it, and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. Just want to know the answer. Yes or no.
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Re: Wow. Really?

#28 Post by dasein »

phenest wrote:My question isn't rhetorical. I don't want to do it, and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. Just want to know the answer. Yes or no.
Try it and see.

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Re: Wow. Really?

#29 Post by golinux »

phenest wrote:
None1975 wrote:
phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
For God's sake, why?
My question isn't rhetorical. I don't want to do it, and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. Just want to know the answer. Yes or no.
Not without unpinning and reassembling packages that have been sanitized of frivolous 'entanglements'. I would predict dependency hell and unlikely things would work very well.
Last edited by golinux on 2017-05-30 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow. Really?

#30 Post by deborah-and-ian »

None1975 wrote:
phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
For God's sake, why?
Feels like those guys in the 70ies arguing that it's sexist for men to be excluded from battered women's shelters.
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Re: Wow. Really?

#31 Post by dasein »

deborah-and-ian wrote:Feels like those guys in the 70ies arguing that it's sexist for men to be excluded from battered women's shelters.
Image

Thanks for capturing what I couldn't quite put into words!

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Re: Wow. Really?

#32 Post by arochester »

I want to emphasize that Devuan is NOT Debian without - or worse, "against" - systemd. Systemd will be supported in Devuan. Devuan is a fork in favor of freedom of choice. Sysvinit will remain the default init system, but all init systems will be supported - at least, all those that are packaged in Debian at the moment.
Translation from http://forum.debianizzati.org/viewtopic ... 04#p188107 dated 11/30/2014

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Re: Wow. Really?

#33 Post by phenest »

golinux wrote:
phenest wrote:But is it possible to install systemd in Devuan?
Not without unpinning and reassembling packages that have been santized of frivolous 'entanglements'. I would predict dependency hell and unlikely things would work very well.
At last, someone who knows how to answer a question.

So, basically, the answer is "no". But how long will it be before some user wants to do it, and the Devuan forums fill up with posts about how better Devuan is than Debian but they need systemd for some reason. I can't think of a reason but someone will.

What the hell, I'm going to download Devuan now. (And no, it's not to try systemd with it.)
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Re: Wow. Really?

#34 Post by golinux »

arochester wrote:
I want to emphasize that Devuan is NOT Debian without - or worse, "against" - systemd. Systemd will be supported in Devuan. Devuan is a fork in favor of freedom of choice. Sysvinit will remain the default init system, but all init systems will be supported - at least, all those that are packaged in Debian at the moment.
Translation from http://forum.debianizzati.org/viewtopic ... 04#p188107 dated 11/30/2014
That was well over two years ago. The landscape has changed a LOT since then. Most importantly, systemd has become much more than init. Its system wide entanglements have made co-existence within a single installation an impossibility. Think what a glacier does slowly to everything in its path. Eventually there is only the glacier . . .

That's why Devuan encourages users who want to run systemd to use Debian. Devuan will continue to provide an alternative of modularity in the Unix tradition (which it seems Debian has abandoned).
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Re: Wow. Really?

#35 Post by pylkko »

I read on slashdot that GNU's own init system (shepherd) is available on Devuan. I wonder how well that works. I don't want to mess around with GNU's linux distro because of the libre kernel that would cause problems on a lot of hardware, I suspect.

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Re: Wow. Really?

#36 Post by None1975 »

phenest wrote:Devuan forums fill up with posts about how better Devuan is than Debian but they need systemd for some reason. I can't think of a reason but someone will..
Yes, you are right. I really miss it, full of happiness popular and exciting systemd. I loved when my system hangs while shutting down, love message, like: "A stop job is running for..." https://postimg.org/image/ar7e3ashz, And he's a good companion, and can easily solve the problem when nothing else to do. With systemd there is always something to do! After all, systemd to take care of my health when I want to restart the computer which is far away from me, he will hang him and I will definitely have to raise my ass and go to my computer, because the walk is very good for your health.No idea how I will live and miss the beloved systemd!
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Re: Wow. Really?

#37 Post by arochester »

LOL!!!

1)
That was well over two years ago. The landscape has changed a LOT since then. Most importantly, systemd has become much more than init.
Like, Debian Jessie released April 26th, 2015 - WITH SYSTEMD
Devuan Jessie LTS released May 25th 2017

As it says on another forum "Devuan, built on a two year old technology" - (mostly built by other people).

Stretch is nearly here!

2)
With systemd there is always something to do!
Not here.

3) The point keeps occurring to me
a) Does Debian "need" Devuan. Yes or No?
b) Does Devuan "need" Debian. Yes or No?

Perhaps the self-identifying, usual subjects should think carefully about putting down Debian and promoting Devuan as an "alternative".

(Theoretically) If Debian disappeared overnight, would Devuan be able to take its place? Yes or No?

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Re: Wow. Really?

#38 Post by Bulkley »

arochester, good questions. Although I do not use Devuan I quietly root for it. Debian may officially claim that it does not need Devuan but it does. The Devuan fork lets Debian developers off the hook for users who need the option. More importantly, users need to understand the differences and why Devuan was created. My long term hope is that Debian become less dogmatic about its position.

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Re: Wow. Really?

#39 Post by golinux »

arochester wrote:(Theoretically) If Debian disappeared overnight, would Devuan be able to take its place? Yes or No?
Currently only a very small number of packages require attention. But we are aware that at some point Devuan may have to become an 'independent' distribution. Our exodus plan was intended to allow current Debian users a smooth upgrade path from Debian (Wheezy or Jessie) to Devuan Jessie. After Jessie that conversion will no longer be possible ie Stretch to ASCII. It will require a reinstall.
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Re: Wow. Really?

#40 Post by arochester »

Currently only a very small number of packages require attention
A one-trick pony?
A person or group noteworthy for only a single achievement, skill, or characteristic.
- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one-trick_pony

What is an "independent" distribution. Not a fork? Not a derivative? But independent???

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