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To choose init in debian?

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VentGrey
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#21 Post by VentGrey »

As far as Debian goes you cannot select an init by default, it uses systemd, BUT you CAN change the init system by installing the package you want, let it be OpenRC, runit, sysv, upstart (?), etc there are some good tutorials on http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page :mrgreen:
I would exchange everything I know in exchange for half of what I don't.

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Lysander
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#22 Post by Lysander »

dasein wrote:
To paraphrase an old saying, "'Free' image hosting sites are only free if your time is worth nothing."
Recently the scores [if not hundreds] of images I've hotlinked through Photobucket since the early 2000s have 404'd [or 403'd?] since they changed their ToS. Mind you, in some cases this is probably a good thing.

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Snake94
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#23 Post by Snake94 »

ruffwoof wrote:
Snake94 wrote:It is true that sysV is very old and I understand that you are looking for alternatives, but maybe openrc would have been a healthier option from my point of view.
As you said
but it is not debian and does not have debian support/developers
Debian is unrivaled in being a complete system. For instance I've just been trying out FreeBSD and its pkg (similar to apt ... that pulls down pre-built binaries) is nowhere near as good as Debians. Frustratingly so, to the extent its not really viable and you have to adopt the compile everything stance (ports). Nor is their service model (upgrades etc.) any good, resulting in more likely having to rebuild from scratch sooner or later (and try and remember all of the tweaks etc. you'd applied (and considerable time/effort doing all of that)). The flexibility and functionality of Debian is fantastic and systemD may very well help improve upon that further - perhaps for instance at some point a choice of browser being just a service that you can activate/deactivate as desired ...etc.

Go with the root I'd say https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/ ... ee1210.jpg rather than those that ride on the back of a giant.

I fell into Debian after having left XP (after a number of years of having used that) back in 2014 when Windows pulled support, and after having tried a vast range of "Linux distro's". Personally I'm content to use older versions of programs as my needs are relatively light and I like the rock solid stability, so I just stick with oldstable (main respositories only, no contrib nor non-free) and my system is better IMO than any of the alternatives (single provider, fantastic range of programs, easy to manage, solid and secure). I have little understanding of init and background programming etc. and from a front end view I saw little if any difference between Debian and Devuan (systemD and sysV). SystemD works very well as far as I'm concerned. Nice additional features such as systemd-analyse blame showing all the startup timings, or even the 'plot' parameter that produces a nice svg image of those timings. Its through its early years phase and is well set to mature (get better) with time.

Have a think about what the others that ride off Debian's back will do when more of its repositories are aligned to systemD. Either they can try and replicate their own repositories and perhaps be like FreeBSD (a poor reflection), or take whatever alternative they deem fit, that likely will have considerably less manpower behind that (not have debian support/developers).
I do not agree on FreeBSD, it is true that pkg is not comparable to APT, APT is much more mature and efficient (but of course pkg is quite new compared to APT) but it works pretty well, you do not have to compile Nothing from the ports unless you want to install a package with specific options.

It is true that debian tries to cover more since it also maintains the packages, but still FreeBSD seems to me a more unified kernel + userland OS, and after all also maintain the ports.

ruffwoof
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#24 Post by ruffwoof »

Snake94 wrote:It is true that debian tries to cover more since it also maintains the packages, but still FreeBSD seems to me a more unified kernel + userland OS, and after all also maintain the ports.
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO88 ... -port.html
In FreeBSD, anyone may submit a new port, or volunteer to maintain an existing unmaintained port. No special commit privilege is needed.
FreeBSD is pretty much just a cli. Whilst that might be secure when you start adding packages/ports to that the pre-built binaries can be incomplete, wrong versions or conflict with other packages and the collective set lacks any real 'authority'. Debian DOES cover more, and manages things much much better.

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Snake94
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#25 Post by Snake94 »

ruffwoof wrote:
Snake94 wrote:It is true that debian tries to cover more since it also maintains the packages, but still FreeBSD seems to me a more unified kernel + userland OS, and after all also maintain the ports.
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO88 ... -port.html
In FreeBSD, anyone may submit a new port, or volunteer to maintain an existing unmaintained port. No special commit privilege is needed.
FreeBSD is pretty much just a cli. Whilst that might be secure when you start adding packages/ports to that the pre-built binaries can be incomplete, wrong versions or conflict with other packages and the collective set lacks any real 'authority'. Debian DOES cover more, and manages things much much better.
True, debian keeps all the packages of its repos, but freebsd is a complete OS: kernel + userland.

Anyway I do not want to detract from this thread and turn it into a "debian vs freebsd"

deborah-and-ian
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#26 Post by deborah-and-ian »

Snake94 wrote:I just want to ask if debian has in their plans to change init or at least give to choose during the installation that init wants to install.
Debian doesn't, but you'll be quite happy here:
https://devuan.org/
http://www.slackware.org/
https://www.dragora.org/
http://gentoo.org/
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Lysander
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#27 Post by Lysander »

deborah-and-ian wrote: Debian doesn't, but you'll be quite happy here:
https://devuan.org/
http://www.slackware.org/
https://www.dragora.org/
http://gentoo.org/
Also I believe systemd is disabled by default in MX Linux.

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Re: To choose init in debian?

#28 Post by pcalvert »

You could use live-build to build a customized Debian live CD/DVD that uses sysvinit instead of systemd. It won't be totally systemd-free, though, because some systemd packages must be pulled in to satisfy dependencies. It wasn't easy to do (in Debian Jessie), but I figured out how to get around the obstacles I encountered.
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Snake94
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#29 Post by Snake94 »

pcalvert wrote:You could use live-build to build a customized Debian live CD/DVD that uses sysvinit instead of systemd. It won't be totally systemd-free, though, because some systemd packages must be pulled in to satisfy dependencies. It wasn't easy to do (in Debian Jessie), but I figured out how to get around the obstacles I encountered.
Thanks, it seems interesting that method, although for that I would prefer to use devuan.

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HuangLao
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#30 Post by HuangLao »

deborah-and-ian wrote:
Snake94 wrote:I just want to ask if debian has in their plans to change init or at least give to choose during the installation that init wants to install.
Debian doesn't, but you'll be quite happy here:
https://devuan.org/
http://www.slackware.org/
https://www.dragora.org/
http://gentoo.org/
an easier transition to Slackware could be SalixOS. https://salixos.org/
Or just jump straight into Slackland http://www.slackware.com/
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Lysander
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#31 Post by Lysander »

HuangLao wrote: an easier transition to Slackware could be SalixOS. https://salixos.org/
Or just jump straight into Slackland http://www.slackware.com/
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Good information, thanks. At some point in my life I want to get into Slackware, I don't mind if it's in ten years, but it's a geeky intention of mine. I hadn't heard of Salix, it looks like a good go-between. I'm very happy with Debian for the foreseeable future.

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HuangLao
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#32 Post by HuangLao »

Lysander wrote:
Good information, thanks. At some point in my life I want to get into Slackware, I don't mind if it's in ten years, but it's a geeky intention of mine. I hadn't heard of Salix, it looks like a good go-between. I'm very happy with Debian for the foreseeable future.
Most welcome...i mainly run Slackware/Salix and Debian (Debian to keep my eyes on systemd). Feel free to ask me questions either here, or over at linuxquestions.org or https://forum.salixos.org/ . Most of the info people have heard about Slackware is either blatantly false or was true in its earliest versions. It is no harder then Debian and with some respects easier.

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Lysander
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Re: To choose init in debian?

#33 Post by Lysander »

HuangLao wrote:
Lysander wrote:
Good information, thanks. At some point in my life I want to get into Slackware, I don't mind if it's in ten years, but it's a geeky intention of mine. I hadn't heard of Salix, it looks like a good go-between. I'm very happy with Debian for the foreseeable future.
Most welcome...i mainly run Slackware/Salix and Debian (Debian to keep my eyes on systemd). Feel free to ask me questions either here, or over at linuxquestions.org or https://forum.salixos.org/ . Most of the info people have heard about Slackware is either blatantly false or was true in its earliest versions. It is no harder then Debian and with some respects easier.
Interesting, I'll hold you to that, thank you. Watch this space [or those ones].

EDIT: Had a go with Salix live Xfce. It's the sort of thing that I could definitely get my head around, and enjoy the learning curve of, but I don't have the time to do so at the moment. Sound didn't work off the bat, a lot of software I use was not in the repos [e.g. Inxi, Screenfetch, Neofetch, Audacious and Chromium I couldn't find through gslapt package manager], and I would have to look into compiling some things. I'm sure it's doable, but not at present.

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