Laptop hardware support

[Doggybag]

So I haven't done an installation in a long time. I used to do them loads, when I was happy mucking around with new operating systems every week. But then other things took over, and I haven't done one for, perhaps, the best part of ten years. (That's probably some kind of testament to the stability of debian.) Now I'm getting a new laptop, and obviously technology has moved on somewhat in the past ten years, in fact my computers are even older than that. I know (knew) my way around debian and linux reasonably well, but I have no idea about all this new-fangled stuff, particularly efi and secure boot and the like. Even grub 1 seemed quite new last time I installed anything, but lilo seems to be long-dead now.

My new machine is a toshiba laptop with Windows 10, and I'd like to have a dual-boot setup. Is it likely that debian stretch will work well with all the hardware? I'd like to have a system without any non-free firmware if possible. I remember wireless networking used to be a bit awkward, and usually wouldn't work from the netinst cd - is that still the case, or will the netinst cd have all the drivers needed for wireless?

(Or, if I'm going to leave windows on anyway, would it be easier just to run debian in a virtual machine?)

[orythem27]

My new machine is a toshiba laptop with Windows 10, and I'd like to have a dual-boot setup. Is it likely that debian stretch will work well with all the hardware

Test with LiveCD/LiveUSB.

(Or, if I'm going to leave windows on anyway, would it be easier just to run debian in a virtual machine?)

This is actually a pretty good idea. I myself has been thinking about going full virtualized for quite some time.

[Doggybag]

Test with LiveCD/LiveUSB.

Good point, I forgot about those!

[pylkko]

I'd like to have a system without any non-free firmware if possible.

not possible

a win 10 license allows you to download a virtual machine image for win 10 also, if you prefer it that way around.

[Doggybag]

a win 10 license allows you to download a virtual machine image for win 10 also, if you prefer it that way around.

So much has changed in 10 years lol! That sounds ideal - I need windows for some work programs but I'd prefer to have debian as my main system.

[Wheelerof4te]

My new machine is a toshiba laptop with Windows 10, and I'd like to have a dual-boot setup. Is it likely that debian stretch will work well with all the hardware? I'd like to have a system without any non-free firmware if possible. I remember wireless networking used to be a bit awkward, and usually wouldn't work from the netinst cd - is that still the case, or will the netinst cd have all the drivers needed for wireless?

Support for non-free firmware has improved, but is still a problem. Especially for Wi-Fi cards. There are Debian Live images, as well as images with non-free firmware. Debian does not officially support those images, nor does it ship with non-free repos by default. As for Windows 10, I wouldn't count on it's long-term support, bonus points if it's an old PC:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133807

[Doggybag]

Things have got even worse than they used to be! I might just try to persude everyone I work with to switch to Libreoffice, that might be easier than faffing about with windows licences...

It's a new laptop so I'm guessing it will be ok with windows 10 - for now. But what happens in 2027 when I'm still using it and windows 15 or whatever comes out? Sounds like it's back to the first plan of trying to get debian installed properly.

As an aside, is installing with encrypted partitions any different under efi?

[Wheelerof4te]

As an aside, is installing with encrypted partitions any different under efi?

I have never installed Debian on EFI or UEFI, but you could check UEFI wiki page: https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI

Maybe others can help.

[pylkko]

In some sense the firmware situation is worse than before.

For example, all Intel machines from 2006 on have Intel management engine, a separate ARC processor core with a ROM and access to the system RAM/network stack (even when the machine is powered off). The firmware is entirely closed source and non-free. It contains at least a small Real-time operating system and a Java virtual machine. AMD has a similar system. In earlier versions you could take out the chip (or reprogram it with a JTAG programmer) and the machine would work and you would get the reserved RAM/freedom back. Later versions, however, will reboot the system every 30 mins or block it's startup entirely if the ME is disabled.

New (skylake +)Intel hardware also require closed-source proprietary binary blobs for GPU power management and audio. Kabylake and on have some DRM/copy protaction 4K video allowing chip in them. Almost all Wifi cards require non-free blobs. UEFI's are also non-free and closed. And so on.

Many programs are, however, OS agnostic today. SO many things used in the office are now "cloud" software. All you need is a browser basically. I mean even Office and Skype are available as cloud platform. Web-based email, documents, spreadsheets, messaging, calendars, literally everything. Name even one thing that cannot now be done using a browser.

https://semiaccurate.com/2017/05/01/rem ... platforms/

[Doggybag]

What on earth has happened? From the sound of that article that applies to desktops too. Is this the (very poor from the start) idea of "trusted platform modules" taken further?

[pylkko]

What on earth has happened? From the sound of that article that applies to desktops too. Is this the (very poor from the start) idea of "trusted platform modules" taken further?

This is the reason you will not ever get "entirely free" firmware. For example, the developers of Libreboot (a open source BIOS) say this:
https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intel

Things like this also apparently allow locating terrorists and having drones shoot at them.

The only computers that can have anything even nearing 100% free software are some old machines where the proprietary BIOS can be reflashed or some of those "dev boards", that is small form factor single chip computers (often ARM architecture cpu's).

[luvr]

My experience with Toshiba laptops is limited to a Toshiba C870 that the owner wanted to dump because she was sick and tired of the Windows 8 that it had come with, so she went for an Apple MacBook (she could afford it).

I switched the laptop to Legacy BIOS mode (a.k.a. "CSM", "Compatibility Support Module", as it appears to be called officially). I installed Xubuntu 14.04 (which was the current Ubuntu Long-Term Support release at the time) on it for the new owner, and "Everything Just Worked (TM)". I'm sure that Debian would run just as fine on the laptop, too, but it certainly will need some proprietary firmware blob.

I have only recently set up a laptop for dual-boot between Windows 10 and Xubuntu 16.04. Like you, I had been out of the loop, as far as new developments go, for quite a while. My desktop PCs are some nine or ten years old and still chugging along quite nicely.

[pylkko]

Why would you use CSM (legacy boot) on a UEFI laptop when Debian can do UEFI, and Ubuntu has been able to to do UEFI for even before Debian?

[luvr]

Why would you use CSM (legacy boot) on a UEFI laptop when Debian can do UEFI, and Ubuntu has been able to to do UEFI for even before Debian?

Because I could?

No, seriously, I had never before even touched a UEFI machine, and I didn't feel like figuring it out back then. Traditional BIOS had always served me fine, and it still could. I'm just not that much into "The Latest and Greatest New Gadget" at all times. Gosh, I don't even have a smartphone yet... I'm sticking with a good old dumbphone for now. I'll make up my mind once the HMD/Nokia brand is up to speed.

[pylkko]

You should notice, however, that uefi csm's are not old school bios. Also, they are many times buggy and work poorly. There is also much variance between different manufacturers. Only use them if there is no alternative.

[RU55EL]

[...]The only computers that can have anything even nearing 100% free software are some old machines where the proprietary BIOS can be reflashed or some of those "dev boards", that is small form factor single chip computers (often ARM architecture cpu's).

Yes, but it is really nice when you replace the wifi card in a notebook computer and you can install Debian with no special firmware requirements. And use a sources.list that looks like this:

Code: Select all

deb  http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main
# deb-src  http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main

deb  http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main
# deb-src  http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main

deb http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main
# deb-src http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main

I replaced the wifi card in my Asus K55A notebook computer. It makes things simpler. (Of course, the SD card reader doesn't work. I didn't install firmware for it, and don't have a use for it. Wifi is something I use.)

[pylkko]

That is a good example of how things used to be better. Back in the day of Asus K55A's you did't need microcode and blobs for video and audio and all that.

[Doggybag]

Yes. And I didn't need to worry about a rootkit loading itself into the bios and running before the kernel loaded, which seems like something that can happen these days with uefi.

Sucks for my new laptop. I think I'll be hanging on to my old machines for a lot longer yet!

What about this? (From wikipedia): "Every Intel platform ... from ... 2008 to ... 2017 has a remotely exploitable security hole in the IME (Intel Management Engine)". Which can be exploited whenever a computer's connected to a network. Even if it's switched off. And it doesn't seem like AMD stuff is much better, according to the libreboot people?

[Wheelerof4te]

^What about it? Millions of people are using their laptops bought since 2008. all around the world. Are we supposed to use only hardware before the 10's in order to run 2017 software? I don't think so. If you are concerned with non-free firmware blobs, why are you buying non-free hardware? Oh, because the truly "free" hardware doesn't exist.

Can't we all just face the fact, companies that generate profit (Intel, AMD, Broadcom, Realtek etc.) are the ones who build the hardware? If you think some company which is funded with donations only will one day build the free hardware, then you are hopelessly mistaken. World ain't like that, and 80% (an understatement at best) of people don't care about any of the quirks happening inside their laptops. They just want something they bought with money to work, and work fast.

Little bit off-topic with this one:

I have looked at FreeBSD handbook. I got interested seeing all the beautifully written instructions, configs and package managers that all blend in so well. Sure, if people would be willing to just read about it for few weeks, they could run it like any other OS. But, then I thought about putting those instructions into practice. Even the mere thought of it made me think: "Do I really have to mess with this thing for so long, when everything just works OTB on my current OS?" And I am not an ordinary user like 80% of others. I like to get technical, to see what is inside the OS. But the common sense told me it would be futile waste of my time to do it. Now, think of your elderly father trying out FreeBSD. Not gonna work, unless he is technical like the 20% of us.

TL;DR:
Use your laptop not to distro-hop or out of some naive belief, but to actually get the needed work done.

[luvr]

You should notice, however, that uefi csm's are not old school bios.

Fair enough. CSM seems to be less configurable than traditional BIOS, for sure, but that seemed to have been a trend that begun with BIOS even before EFI came into existence.

Also, they are many times buggy and work poorly. There is also much variance between different manufacturers.

No point in arguing this, but can’t the same be said of UEFI mode? (Just wondering...)

Only use them if there is no alternative.

I don’t know... My own laptop came with Xubuntu 14.10 pre-installed, and was set up with Legacy BIOS boot (even though it does have UEFI on board). I have long since deleted the original Operating System, and repartitioned the harddisk under the GPT scheme, with a total of ten partitions. I haven’t seen a reason to switch it to UEFI boot, though. It currently has Debian Testing, Xubuntu 16.04, and Slackware 14.2 installed, and it works like a charm. It just so happens that I have no idea how UEFI boot would in any way be “better” (for whichever definition of “better” that you find appropriate)—or “worse”, for that matter.