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Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL looms

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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HuangLao
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#21 Post by HuangLao »

ruffwoof wrote:
For me it distils down to the cost of giving up on the all-encompassing Debian model/framework in order to not run systemD ... simply isn't viable unless the Slacko or Salix (or whatever) packages model/framework were better than Debians.

With Debian I can run any sub-set combination of 40,000+ pre-built programs that are fixed (frozen) for typically 4 year (through stable and oldstable), that are security updated if/when necessary, all sourced from a single provider and that have been strongly vetted (and perhaps even tweaked) before being admitted to that 'library', and then absorbed (maintained) by that single provider. And in so doing induce great stability (low risk of having to down-tools to investigate and fix the tool (desktop system)). Can Slackware/Salix/whatever provide a similar model/framework? FreeBSD most certainly doesn't.
The package comparison comes up from to time, keep in mind that Debian's 50,000+ packages is not a true number, because most of those packages are split from the main package. Take for example claws-mail, in Debian it has many packages, in Slackware it is one package. Also, Slackware does not strip out/split out dev packages, in Slackware you get the program/package exactly how the original developer(s) intended it. Patches are from the original dev.'s, not package maintainers, not distro maintainers.

When you do a full install of Slackware, you have everything you need for whatever purpose you choose to use Slackware. As soon as you log in, you can start building, modifying, running whatever, no assumptions are made about what you want to use it for. A default Slackware setup on install does not even boot into X, you are there at the terminal and the system is waiting for your instructions. Would you like to startx, run from tty, whatever....of course you can enable a DM to automatically start x if you like that better. Salix defaults to GDM, was Slim in the past.

One benefit is it helps to increase security, again recall the openssl disaster, where a package maintainer felt he knew more then the openssl dev.'s and decided to make a "small change". Slackware was never affected by this massive security hole. Its packages are pure vanilla, you get what the program developers intended, and the program works and looks how they intended. Also, services are not started unless you specifically tell it to start, auto starting services before they are configured is another security nightmare.

But I digress, the purpose of this thread is to highlight other options for those currently using Debian that would like not to use systemd, not get into a pissing contest of which is better, longer, or who spells their name better in the snow. :lol:

BTW, for those interested, Gnome is not officially supported with Slackware, you will have to add a repo for gnome, PV gave up on Gnome a long time ago. I see that as a benefit, others may not. Slackware works closely with Xfce and KDE dev.'s as well.

PS: further reflection on security: Slackware was used in International Space Station and it is still used by many in corporations and various government(s). Quite popular for development purposes, workstations and servers etc....

Ref: https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3024?page=0,1

ruffwoof
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#22 Post by ruffwoof »

I'd like to thank you HuangLao for having taken the time to enlighten here. Slackware does indeed look like a good choice of stable alternative for those preferring to avoid SystemD. I watched through Spatry's video of installing slackware and even downloaded the iso image with the intent of giving it a try out of interest. Sadly however my preferred choices of relatively lightweight jwm and pcmanfm aren't in the base system (yes I know can easily be pulled in) ... so I've dropped the idea. Certainly looks a better choice than FreeBSD (having so much more in the base system), and rock solid on the stability side. Thanks again, greatly appreciated.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#23 Post by Lysander »

I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber
Last edited by Lysander on 2017-08-19 12:36, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#25 Post by stevepusser »

Lysander wrote:I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber
"Compiling" neofetch, a shell script? :?
MX Linux packager and developer

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#26 Post by Lysander »

stevepusser wrote:"Compiling" neofetch, a shell script? :?
OK, well maybe I misunderstood the meaning of 'compile' in this context. I'm learning.

OP, you must get people to update their sources if trying the live Salix install. I see that http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* is down, but I couldn't use

Code: Select all

sudo reposetup 
because it was looking at http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* for the list. I changed the sources lists manually then updated via reposetup so they now look like this

Code: Select all

# Working directory for local storage/cache.
WORKINGDIR=/var/slapt-get

# Exclude package names and expressions.
# To exclude pre and beta packages, add this to the exclude:
#   [0-9\_\.\-]{1}pre[0-9\-\.\-]{1}
EXCLUDE=^aaa_elflibs,^aaa_base,^devs,^glibc.*,^kernel-.*,^rootuser-settings,^zzz-settings.*,-i?86-

# The Slackware repositories, including dependency information
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/slackware-14.2/:OFFICIAL
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/slackware-14.2/extra/:OFFICIAL

# The Salix repository
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/14.2/:PREFERRED
# And the Salix extra repository
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/x86_64/extra-14.2/:OFFICIAL

Code: Select all

# Local repositories
# SOURCE=file:///var/www/packages/:CUSTOM

BUILDDIR=/usr/src/slapt-src
PKGEXT=txz
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/slkbuild/14.2/
SOURCE=http://slackware.uk/salix/sbo/14.2/
Of course, the location depends on the user, but these work, at least.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#27 Post by HuangLao »

ruffwoof wrote:I'd like to thank you HuangLao for having taken the time to enlighten here. Slackware does indeed look like a good choice of stable alternative for those preferring to avoid SystemD. I watched through Spatry's video of installing slackware and even downloaded the iso image with the intent of giving it a try out of interest. Sadly however my preferred choices of relatively lightweight jwm and pcmanfm aren't in the base system (yes I know can easily be pulled in) ... so I've dropped the idea. Certainly looks a better choice than FreeBSD (having so much more in the base system), and rock solid on the stability side. Thanks again, greatly appreciated.
yeah, Slackware has many WM's and 2 DE's, however, jwm would need to be added after install. Now on Salix you could do a "core" install and then add jwm from there. core only installs the bare minimum, similar to Debian net install.

Ref: http://guide.salixos.org/103Installatio ... html#2_1_2
Last edited by HuangLao on 2017-08-19 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

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HuangLao
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#28 Post by HuangLao »

Lysander wrote:I'd also like to extend my thanks to the OP. After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment. Thank you, OP!

Image

EDIT: Just got Spotify installed from Slackbuilds too. They're using v 1.0.59.395.ge6ca9946, more up to date than the Stretch version.

EDIT2: thanks jibberjabber
there you go, once you get bitten with the source bug its quite intoxicating...lol....

Wait until you discover Slackbuilds or on Salix SLKBUILD (which is a hybrid of Slackbuild scripts and Arch script method), once you learn that method you can build anything from anywhere with source. easy peezy.

a hint, if you use as root or sudo "spi -u or spi -i" you can update both package repos and source repos -u or -i will install from package repos and source repos. If there is a dependency for a source package that Salix already has then it will pull in that prebuilt dependency saving time. :)
Ref: http://guide.salixos.org/321SalixPackageInstaller.html
http://guide.salixos.org/322slaptget.html
http://guide.salixos.org/325MakingaPack ... BUILD.html

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#29 Post by HuangLao »

Lysander wrote:
OP, you must get people to update their sources if trying the live Salix install. I see that http://salix.hostingxtreme.com/x86_64/* is down, but I couldn't use
Yes, they are working on a 14.2.1 release with updated installer, hostingxtreme stopped being a mirror after 14.2 came out, it had way too much down time. If you are in the US, then xmission (in Utah) is a very good mirror or gtlib.gatech (in Georgia) , slackware.uk (UK of course) is a huge mirror for all of slackware, however, usually mirrors closest to you are faster.

BTW, installing packages is ridiculously fast.

PS: the gui version of reposetup is under system then repository mirror

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#30 Post by pylkko »

I wonder if universal package managers like Guix, Flatpak etc are available? That is, you could install from prebuilt binaries. Currently apparently Guix does not meet Debian "inclusion criteria", meaning that you need to install it manually from a tarball.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#31 Post by HuangLao »

pylkko wrote:I wonder if universal package managers like Guix, Flatpak etc are available? That is, you could install from prebuilt binaries. Currently apparently Guix does not meet Debian "inclusion criteria", meaning that you need to install it manually from a tarball.
not in default install, however, it can be added:
https://slackbuilds.org/repository/14.2/system/guix/

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#32 Post by ruffwoof »

Lysander wrote:After fiddling around for a bit in Salix Live I managed to compile my first program from source - neofetch. Yes, it's a simple one but it felt like an accomplishment.
You might like FreeBSD. You can use pkg which is similar to apt-get ... pulls down pre-built binaries, or ports ... which compiles from source. Nice and easy - you fetch the port list and then under /usr/ports you have all of the folders for programs. cd to one of those and make install clean ... and it pulls down all of the source code and builds the binary for you (asking for which settings you want to build in or not).

You are however left with having to configure things afterwards ... and when the base system is upgraded to a newer release you have to rebuild everything (for instance it can take 3 hours to build just libreoffice). You should also watch out for security flaws/updates and remove/disable them (or build the fixed versions) ...etc.

FreeBSD has a relatively small base system ... just the cli. Slackware has a larger base system ... but smaller than Debians. The more that is in the base system the less you have to do and if everything you use is solely from the base system then the risk of breakage after updates is reduced. Port in third party stuff and sooner or later a 'update' might lead to having to spend time/effort in identifying and fixing things. Nice as a learning experience, nice initially to run. But not something that personally I'd like to have to address/fix every now and then. More for the techies that enjoy such admin tasks.

Debians base contains older versions of programs because it strives to ensure each program works well individually and as part of the whole base system. Just dropping in newer individual programs from third parties (even though the third party is the program developer) on top of that base introduces risks (possible conflicts). Updates become more a game of Russian Roulette and sooner or later something goes bang.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#33 Post by HuangLao »

Slackware releases when ready, everything in Slackware is thoroughly tested and vetted. Slackware does not break. If you install/compile a program from another source, perhaps that program could break, but it would only affect that program, not Slackware, and if you run the program from cli, the error message will tell you whats wrong/missing etc... very easy to fix. Also, anything built from slackbuilds.org is guaranteed to run on stable versions of Slackware, not current (dev. version/rolling).

PS: what applies to Slackware is true for Salix.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#34 Post by ruffwoof »

Debian_GNUkFreeBSDJessie could be one alternative. FreeBSD kernel, Debian repositories (apt-get ...etc.).

https://youtu.be/pPCdcKueeU4

https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD/[quote]
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is a general purpose operating system, an official Debian GNU distribution using the kernel of FreeBSD instead of the Linux kernel. About ninety percent of the Debian software archive is available for Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. [/quote]

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#35 Post by pylkko »

There are also the non-linux/Bsd operating systems

Debian GNU/Hurd obviously also
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=133480

HelenOS
http://www.helenos.org
Minix3
http://www.minix3.org
Redox OS
https://github.com/redox-os

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#36 Post by GarryRicketson »


Wheelerof4te
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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#37 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems, it's worth mentoning that most modern hardware will not work on them or will work badly. For example, FreeBSD 11 doesn't support CPUs newer than Haswell. TrueOS supports chips up to Skylake, but it's not production ready, as someone mentioned.

EDIT: Obviously, those considering the switch from Wheezy wouldn't even run it on the newer hardware. With that in mind, this post is kinda meaningless :mrgreen:


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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#39 Post by HuangLao »


Read both, yawn. YMMV, however, your results were far from typical as evidenced on linuxquestions.org, salixos.org, IIRC's and personal experience.

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Re: Options for those not wanting systemd as Wheezy EOL loom

#40 Post by GarryRicketson »

I started looking into what options I would use when Debian 7 wheezy reached EOL,
about a year ago, or a little more.
The options I decided to use , based on trying many of the other options, that are being promoted in this thread, sadly none suited my needs.
The only 2 that do suit my needs, are the 2 I have mentioned,
OpenBsd and Minix3, OpenBsd being the main one, it pretty much just works, out of the box, and not only on old hardware but newer hard ware as well.
But any way, I guess it is kind of pointless, especially when the main point of the topic seems to be only to promote Slackware, and Salix. So my apology, if it is pointless to mention any other options:
Wheelerof4te wrote:Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems, it's worth mentoning that most modern hardware will not work on them or will work badly. For example, FreeBSD 11 doesn't support CPUs newer than Haswell. TrueOS supports chips up to Skylake, but it's not production ready, as someone mentioned.

EDIT: Obviously, those considering the switch from Wheezy wouldn't even run it on the newer hardware. With that in mind, this post is kinda meaningless :mrgreen:
I am not sure, if my post or the post quoted is the one being referred to. I am inclined to
think the post I have quoted is the one that is pointless.
To start with :
Regarding FreeBSD and these other non-Linux systems,
This is pointless, to lump all of the non-linux systems into 1 group, and consider them all to be like FreeBsd, is absurd.
I never even considered FreeBsd as a option, well I did look at some of the documentation, but it was clear, for me it was not a option. Maybe it does not support CPUs newer than Haswell, to be honest I don't know, or care. There were other reasons for deciding it is not a option, but it would be pointless to go into that here.

OpenBsd does support my hardware, and the hardware my server is using, so that is what counts.
I can see how maybe to many, Minix3 would not be a option, out of the box, it is
really minimal, but it is solid and reliable. And it has a great potential, is very interesting
to experiment with. (at least to me, and a few others any way)
From: http://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=www: ... eliability Reliability in MINIX 3

One of the main goals of MINIX 3 is reliability. Below we discuss some of the more important principles that enhance MINIX 3's reliability. These principles also enhance security, since most security flaws are due to attackers exploiting bugs in the code, so greater reliability will also improve security. Some of the ideas discussed are in the current release, but a few are scheduled for the next release. As this is a research project, we often make changes as we think of new ways to improve reliability.
Reduce kernel size

Monolithic operating systems (e.g., Windows, Linux, BSD) have millions of lines of kernel code. There is no way so much code can ever be made correct. In contrast, MINIX 3 has about 4000 lines of executable kernel code. We believe this code can eventually be made fairly close to bug free.
Something to think about and consider, but then again I suppose it is pointless to some
people.
(sarcastic comment)
Now that Windows is even including Linux, in their programs, so essentially linux and ms windows have merged,... :mrgreen: (being sarcastic here, it is the same as lumping all of the non linux systems into 1 group, and claiming them to be like FreeBsd. ) So that is my point, or point less point. (end sarcasm)
Seriously though, if any one is interested in learning more about OpenBsd:
https://www.openbsd.org/
Is the best place to start, it is not "FreeBsd",... just like Debian is not Ubuntu.
Minix3:
http://wiki.minix3.org/
And for discussion or questions:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/minix3
======================================
Any way, that is all from me now, on this topic,.. I won't be interrupting it
any more. I can see it is pointless to mention any other options beyond slackware
or salix.

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