Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
Message
Author
User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#21 Post by 4D696B65 »

Capitain_Jack wrote: We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.
That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#22 Post by Capitain_Jack »

kedaha wrote: If you install, for example, FlashPlayer, you must accept the Adobe's EULA, which has absolutely nothing to do with Debian. If you install Skype, you are similarly bound by Microsoft's terms. Of course one can't view videos which require Flash if one rejects the proprietary license. Similary, if you reject Microsoft's Licensee agreement, you must forgo the wonders of Windows. :wink:
But do you agree, that at least, a non-free Debian install, still is Debian on its core?
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#23 Post by Capitain_Jack »

4D696B65 wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote: We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.
That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D
Ok, so you must know how to install Debian non-free from net install image, I guess, and that is what I'm talking about, you have knowledge that can be useful into direct derivations, when a problem is related/can be solved using debian core. And I guess (not stalking into your profile, just talking normaly) also that if one asks for help and have anything else onto repos, you deny help, even if is a how to enable no password for sudo....don't you?

What I meant about roots wasn't software, but directives:
"...As one of the earliest operating systems based on the Linux kernel, it was decided that Debian was to be developed openly and freely distributed in the spirit of the GNU Project. This decision drew the attention and support of the Free Software Foundation, which sponsored the project for one year from November 1994 to November 1995.[8] Upon the ending of the sponsorship, the Debian Project formed the non-profit organisation Software in the Public Interest...."
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#24 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Whatever you are trying to prove, you will not prove it by showelling your views into everyone's throat. Debian gives you choice, as every piece of free (as in freedom) software gives you choice. Go and make your own derivative, call it "Captain Jack Sparrow's distro" or whatever. You can do that.

But don't come here, on Debian's User forums and write that Debian is the same as it's derivatives. No, it is not. Insisting that it is so will only mark you as a troll.

EDIT: Damn, you sure write fast.

User avatar
Thorny
Posts: 542
Joined: 2011-02-27 13:40

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#25 Post by Thorny »

Well Captain_Jack

You make a first post here and almost immediately you start to tell us how wrong we are and what we should change.

You are informed by an admin that derivitives are not Debian. At least one other long time member also told you. If you read enough posts here you will see that is standard procedure and that most of the time users are directed to the forums for the derivitive as the appropriate place for their questions. In other forums have you had good luck arguing with an admin? (rhetorical question)

You state that you are not a troll, however, your actions seem very much like trollish behaviour to me.

In this thread you are trying to "rally" us all to your way of thinking but I just don't agree with you. Your point that "Sparky" is Debian is a fallacy to begin with, it's based on Debian testing and testing is not a release. In addition, it has always been the recommendation that users running testing know what they are doing and how to diagnose problems and fix them and report bugs as needed. If you want to try and help users of derivatives then go ahead to the best of your ability but you probably shouldn't expect the rest of us to conform to your vision of how we should act. There are those here who also don't try to help inexperienced users use the testing branch and direct them to stable, I view that as good and reasonable advice.

Lastly, a bit of advice from an old guy, spend time being helpful previous to unleashing a spew of criticism.

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#26 Post by Capitain_Jack »

Thorny wrote:Well Captain_Jack

You make a first post here and almost immediately you start to tell us how wrong we are and what we should change.
If something is not right, I must be a veteran to show it off?
Thorny wrote:You are informed by an admin that derivitives are not Debian. At least one other long time member also told you. If you read enough posts here you will see that is standard procedure and that most of the time users are directed to the forums for the derivitive as the appropriate place for their questions. In other forums have you had good luck arguing with an admin? (rhetorical question)
I am sorry if I sound arguing, to type something clearly is already difficult, and english is not my native language. I guess all times I searched something debian related and end up on this forum, I saw people behaving snob about their skills on "pure" this or that, and usualy the question was easy to root and debian related, not derivation repos packages. The small distros, again, that directly derivation from Debian (I mean uses debian as core and provides software, let's say, for multimedia propouse, and thats where my car sound system analogie comes from), usualy doesn't have a big tech user base as Debian have, so this forum could play a major part, be a central into Debian core part of any system.
Thorny wrote: You state that you are not a troll, however, your actions seem very much like trollish behaviour to me.
Why?
Thorny wrote:In this thread you are trying to "rally" us all to your way of thinking but I just don't agree with you. Your point that "Sparky" is Debian is a fallacy to begin with, it's based on Debian testing and testing is not a release.
I see that you read the wiki, please, refer to the web site and you'll see Sparky have all Debian flavors. Until now, and will go on, I do follow the forum rules and have not accused anyone for nothing, and my talk direct to no other than people that use debian non-free and says it's pure debian or deny help on a problem that can be addressed as debian because of, let's say for example, heaving teamviewer repo on it's secondary repos.

You are being rude by using the word falacy.
fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies
a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.
"the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy"
sinônimos: misconception, misbelief, delusion, mistaken impression, error, misapprehension, misinterpretation, misconstruction, mistake; Mais
untruth, inconsistency, myth
"the fallacy that the sun moves round the earth"
Logic
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.
"the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem"
Thorny wrote:In addition, it has always been the recommendation that users running testing know what they are doing and how to diagnose problems and fix them and report bugs as needed. If you want to try and help users of derivatives then go ahead to the best of your ability but you probably shouldn't expect the rest of us to conform to your vision of how we should act. There are those here who also don't try to help inexperienced users use the testing branch and direct them to stable, I view that as good and reasonable advice.
I see you really do not read what I typed...I've been using Debian since the beginning, and derivations also, but not limited to, have you ever heard of Connectiva Linux? I was here, this was in my country...
What I do expect? At least a good talk about it, since this forum is not only for problems related directly to code, but to it's users, us.
I already said up there that sparky have all flavors, and that is not a big problem for me, I know how solid Debian is, even at it's "unstable" flavor, witch is used as base for many very used rebuilt derivates, as Ubuntu.

I'm not asking for advice, nor needing help, my intentions are simply debate to make the forum better.
Thorny wrote:Lastly, a bit of advice from an old guy, spend time being helpful previous to unleashing a spew of criticism.
[/quote]
I am trying to be helpful, actually, I saw this matter I am talking about happening here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=135603
Only after a clean "pure debian" (because as said, if is not pure free is not pure debian) he offered help about the issue, but the first thing was to ask wich repos he was using, and it happens to be sparky.
The reason, I, personaly, use sparky repo, is because have usefull easy to install non-free software, and I am into Linux dissemination locally, at a very poor location into Brazil, so for every install make it Debian way cannot be, I must use some kind of "facilitator" and sparky is just that.

Believe-me when I do say, I run a private pvpgn server over a stable debian non-free (almost pure =D ) install behind a opnsense firewall, I know things...
Last edited by Capitain_Jack on 2017-12-16 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#27 Post by 4D696B65 »

Capitain_Jack wrote:
4D696B65 wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote: We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.
That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D
Capitain_Jack wrote: And I guess (not stalking into your profile, just talking normaly) also that if one asks for help and have anything else onto repos, you deny help, even if is a how to enable no password for sudo....don't you?
Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.

User avatar
bw123
Posts: 4015
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#28 Post by bw123 »

Firmware from non-free is not the same as adding a derivative repository because firmware packages for the most part have no dependencies.
resigned by AI ChatGPT

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#29 Post by Capitain_Jack »

4D696B65 wrote:Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.
You are into the "I'm pure" business...never read the derivation definition and the TWO types of derivation: DIRECT (using debian main packages) and REBUILT (from source, like Ubuntu), I am talking about direct derivations, witch in it's core is Debian (free and/or non-free, whenever it's flavor stable, testing or unstable), and normally, are only software repos.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#30 Post by Capitain_Jack »

bw123 wrote:Firmware from non-free is not the same as adding a derivative repository because firmware packages for the most part have no dependencies.
"...Features...
...Debian has access to online repositories that contain over 50,000 software packages making it the largest software compilation. Debian officially contains only free software , but non-free software can be downloaded and installed from the Debian repositories..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Features
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#31 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Capitain_Jack wrote:I've been using Debian since the beginning, and derivations also
Tell me, which distro are you using now?

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#32 Post by Capitain_Jack »

Wheelerof4te wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote:I've been using Debian since the beginning, and derivations also
Tell me, which distro are you using now?
Tell me you, If you are into this discussion, read posted before things...
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#33 Post by Wheelerof4te »

Oh, i did. And now you sound like a true troll.
click

Bye.
Last edited by Wheelerof4te on 2017-12-16 16:13, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GarryRicketson
Posts: 5644
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#34 Post by GarryRicketson »

I have read,, this one and the other, I get the impression the OP is using
Sparky Linux, but wants to convince us it is not Sparky Linux, but it is Debian, but it isn't,
so it is not clear, I think it is Sparky Linux.

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#35 Post by 4D696B65 »

Capitain_Jack wrote:
4D696B65 wrote:Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.
You are into the "I'm pure" business...never read the derivation definition and the TWO types of derivation: DIRECT (using debian main packages) and REBUILT (from source, like Ubuntu), I am talking about direct derivations, witch in it's core is Debian (free and/or non-free, whenever it's flavor stable, testing or unstable), and normally, are only software repos.
Ok. So what is your point exactly? Clone a distro and change the name. That is wrong in my book but hey if it is licensed that way so be it. Maybe they tweaked a file in /ect or something.
Or take debians packages and recompile them so the are no longer binary compatible?

Either way, Why should we support over 100 distros at the Debian user forum?

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#36 Post by Capitain_Jack »

Wheelerof4te wrote:Oh, i did. And now you are sounding like a true troll.
click

Bye.
Am I? Why? you are rude by asking this man when I already mentioned a dozen times the distro I'm talking about, but not limited to.....
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#37 Post by Capitain_Jack »

GarryRicketson wrote:I have read,, this one and the other, I get the impression the OP is using
Sparky Linux, but wants to convince us it is not Sparky Linux, but it is Debian, but it isn't,
so it is not clear, I think it is Sparky Linux.
No man, I do not want to convice you this or that distro is Debian (free or non-free), please, it is this type of spirit that I am addressing, it's not a fight.

When a derivation distro uses the core of Debian, on the Debian part (everything that came from debian repo), is not Debian? for me yes it is, if you debug a software, you begin from scratch or make the wrong part fixed? that's what this post is an invitation to, help on the Debian part always, of course knowing the distro is important, but maybe you can try help people also as first thing...

Sparky have software on it's repos, and uses Debian non-free as core. Of course is Sparky, no Debian, is a direct derivation and you, as all "pure debian" trolls, is trying to put words into my talking...
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#38 Post by Capitain_Jack »

4D696B65 wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote:
4D696B65 wrote:Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.
You are into the "I'm pure" business...never read the derivation definition and the TWO types of derivation: DIRECT (using debian main packages) and REBUILT (from source, like Ubuntu), I am talking about direct derivations, witch in it's core is Debian (free and/or non-free, whenever it's flavor stable, testing or unstable), and normally, are only software repos.
Ok. So what is your point exactly? Clone a distro and change the name. That is wrong in my book but hey if it is licensed that way so be it. Maybe they tweaked a file in /ect or something.
Or take debians packages and recompile them so the are no longer binary compatible?

Either way, Why should we support over 100 distros at the Debian user forum?
No, I am trying to spread the real knowledge about derivation on debian, and why people can try to help if the distro is a direct derivation and you can clearly see that the problem is on debian related repos, this, by itself, can help the "pure debian" likers also, as can address quickly problems related to Debian packages (no matter witch version or flavor).
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

User avatar
bw123
Posts: 4015
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#39 Post by bw123 »

Capitain_Jack wrote: Of course is Sparky, no Debian, is a direct derivation and you, as all "pure debian" trolls, is trying to put words into my talking...
You have offered no proof to your claim that direct is better than rebuilt. The topic isn't "pure" debian, you are saying that sparky is somehow different than other debian-based, and their repos are compatible. Where is the proof?
resigned by AI ChatGPT

User avatar
Capitain_Jack
Posts: 153
Joined: 2017-12-15 12:07
Location: Brazil capital, Brasilia, At the favela.

Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

#40 Post by Capitain_Jack »

See, until now, very expirenced users tryied out to make a fight, not even reading what I meaning by saying that the core of a direct derivation is Debian (take out non-free and distro software, what is left?).
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha

Locked