Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby jmgibson1981 » 2018-01-09 13:16

My take on this issue is similar to my World of Warcraft experience (go ahead and laugh, I am.)

Everyone wanted to be a guild leader. Problem, now we had 1000 tiny guilds that couldn't do anything. End result, server progress was pathetic.

Similarly with software, everyone wants to have their own software. They wrote it. Good for them, now we have a truckload of text editors (or insert favorite app here) and they all do exactly the same thing with no real innovation.

Sadly people keep reinventing the wheel instead of pooling resources. I'm not advocating for the Windows way but I do believe there is such a thing as to much choice. This is one of the things that made my open source transition difficult. To this day I still flip flop de / wm regularly because I can't decide. Is that a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. Everyone loves free choice, it's what linux is built on. But to much of that causes more problems than it helps in my opinion.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby makh » 2018-01-09 16:21

jmgibson1981 wrote:My take on this issue is...

Hi
Good point, ... made me think something "more missing":

1. Too much resources wastage on more than perhaps thousands of repositories and servers for same one "text editor" say. Why waste so many resources.? :idea:

2. It seems better, like in android (perhaps this is coming via flatpak), to launch a good product which gets installed in all 4 versions of debian: Stable, Old Stable, Testing, Sid. It will save a lot on repositories and servers. The googleplay doesnt differentiate, not even the other downloaded softwares, force bind to a single kernel or android version. :!: But this may apply to rolling distros only, not to stable.

3. I didnt wanted to add here: but Ubuntu Desktop blew it up, and forced me to Debian, I remember the transition: Ubuntu 8.04 to Debian Squeeze. That project was suppose to be Desktop leader in Linux world, ... but I wont add more. :roll:

4. The over head resources, should now be instead put on to work on better drivers and closed sourced applications, which dont have good alternates. And to make the existing ones get par the current.

5. The "distro war on desktops" should be less, now, rather focus on 4 or 5 main distros. Else, perhaps Android or other newcomer may "out-run" both MacOS and Windows.


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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby oswaldkelso » 2018-01-10 13:35

makh wrote:Hi

Wrt:
https://itsfoss.com/visio-alternatives-linux/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=new_open_source_mobile_os_gnome_customization_and_ubuntu_1710_iso_recall&utm_term=2018-01-05

Note:
1. This point is not related to WMs or their applications, extensions etc
2. This point is more related to basic Desktop applications.



Yes it does! Do you thin users of window managers don't use desktop applications?

1. I dont pretty much understand why do we have so many alternates to nautilus. Maximum 3 developed for standard DEs should have been enough.


Says a lot. You sound like an Apple or Microsoft user that has never experienced anything other than the finder or explorer

2. Why there are more than a dozen desktop environments, each trying to give icons and interface, for the very same purpose. Again Cinnamon/Xfce, KDE and Gnome were more than enough.


Same again. Get out more. But from my experience all those mentioned above apart from Xfce are either, shit, bloated and slow or all of those.

3. I like Kolourpaint more than others, personally. But still there may be some lags in it, but having gpaint, and all others for same single task.


If Kolorpaint lags on your system you have an issue somewhere.

4. So many panel applications/docks...


That all offer different options or ways of configuring.

5. Cd/Dvd Burning: k3b is my choice, but there are so many others, for each desktop!


TkDVD is mine and I'm always right

6. Audio/Music players, more than many, competing each other.


Competing? Or just made as their programmers think best.

7. Ending the basic default list here. (others: terminals, archiving tools, office, web browsers, task manager, calender, image viewers, video players)


Good because this whole idea is a load of tosh.

Why not just have 3/4 main projects, just like Distros: Debian, Fedora, LFS, and rest if the developers are interested to branch them from the original projects, as derived Distros, but still linked to the main project, and if there is positive development in the downstream, then all the upstream can also benefit from it. Though I do assume, it doesnt exist, yet.


Why not have Gentoo, Gobo and Dragora
Still some good alternates (2 or 3 only) ... seem missing, in Linux world, to:
1. xsane
2. Hplip
3. etc



I suggest you write them then or pay someone else to.

And again nothing solid exists against, wrt same inter collaboration between developers:
1. AutoCAD
2. Some Adobe Products
3. etc


As above write it or I suggest you use windows if you don't want to. Why would anyone with half a brain cell WANT to contaminate their free operating system with SLAVEWARE

8<------------8<--------------8<------------8<--------------8<------------8<--------------8<------------8<--------------

makh wrote:
jmgibson1981 wrote:My take on this issue is...

Hi
Good point, ... made me think something "more missing":


Rubbish point actually that has nothing to do with free software redistribution

1. Too much resources wastage on more than perhaps thousands of repositories and servers for same one "text editor" say. Why waste so many resources.? :idea:


Wow thousands of repositories in a world of millions if no billions of software users. I take it you do realise that most of these same "text editors" are binary packages in different forms. dmg, exe, tlz, deb, rpm etc,,, and that some also need to host the source files as part of the licence agreement.

2. It seems better, like in android (perhaps this is coming via flatpak), to launch a good product which gets installed in all 4 versions of debian: Stable, Old Stable, Testing, Sid. It will save a lot on repositories and servers. The googleplay doesnt differentiate, not even the other downloaded softwares, force bind to a single kernel or android version. :!: But this may apply to rolling distros only, not to stable.


Better like in Android! :lol: flatpak another of the freedesktop.org (we are not a standards body just act like one) lock downs.

3. I didnt wanted to add here: but Ubuntu Desktop blew it up, and forced me to Debian, I remember the transition: Ubuntu 8.04 to Debian Squeeze. That project was suppose to be Desktop leader in Linux world, ... but I wont add more. :roll:


No one forced you to Debian. It's not like you didn't have CHOICE.
4. The over head resources, should now be instead put on to work on better drivers and closed sourced applications, which dont have good alternates. And to make the existing ones get par the current.


Does not compute.
5. The "distro war on desktops" should be less, now, rather focus on 4 or 5 main distros. Else, perhaps Android or other newcomer may "out-run" both MacOS and Windows.


A big Bollox to that. In short I've not read such a load of tosh in this forum for a long while (ignoring you know who who always writes tosh) .
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby GarryRicketson » 2018-01-10 14:45

Any way I am glad we have lot's of choices, sadly it appears in this thread a couple of insignificant people would like to restrict us to only using what they think we should be using.
All though I use many desktop applications, I use them in a WM manager environment.
It would really be unfortunate if we were all restricted to only be allowed to use
MS windows, or Gnome/unity, fortunately the promoters of this kind of propaganda, sometimes trying to tell us we can not have a usable system, if we do not use Gnome or Kde, etc,.... blah, they have no clue as to what they are talking about, and it shows.
Like wise, fortunately we have many very usable alternatives to systemd , and the distros that have taken that route,... but I suppose that is another topic.
But also, fortunately it is available as well for those that prefer it.
Yes, it is good to have 20 or more applications that can perform a task, each app , is still unique and depending on many other factors, with a wide range of choices , one can find and use the choice that is best for their unique situation.
If and when I can not find a application that is perfect for ME, then it is time to
develop yet another.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby ticojohn » 2018-01-10 15:42

Diversity is great. Without it we would be nothing more than a bunch of workers in a hive.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby steve_v » 2018-01-10 16:43

makh wrote:1. I dont pretty much understand why do we have so many alternates to nautilus. Maximum 3 developed for standard DEs should have been enough.
2. Why there are more than a dozen desktop environments, each trying to give icons and interface, for the very same purpose. Again Cinnamon/Xfce, KDE and Gnome were more than enough.
3. I like Kolourpaint more than others, personally. But still there may be some lags in it, but having gpaint, and all others for same single task.
4. So many panel applications/docks...
5. Cd/Dvd Burning: k3b is my choice, but there are so many others, for each desktop!
6. Audio/Music players, more than many, competing each other


This thread appears to be based on the premise that the purpose of software is to make $user happy. I disagree.
IME a great many open source hackers build the things that they want, or code simply for the joy of it.

Someone starts writing music player #187 because they feel like writing a music player, because it's fun, and because it's an opportunity to make it just how they like it. If others like it too, it might become another choice in the Debian repos.
What's the problem here? Why should unpaid hackers work on improving the things you want instead?

There's no polished alternative to AutoCAD because there are not enough people keen to work on one in their free time, feel free to improve the situation by contributing to, say, FreeCAD.
If you want to write a new autocad clone, go right ahead. If you want to herd everybody else into working on your pet want, go fish.

Or just continue whingeing about all that not-perfect free stuff you're using, and how people aren't working hard / fast / efficient enough making it for you.
Geez, these backseat developers sure are demanding. :roll:
Besides, I don't like your picks for the projects everyone should be working on, what makes your favourite applications more deserving than mine?

Personally, I think it's awesome that there is so much free code to choose from, and even more awesome that most of it is free so I can tweak it however I like.
Diversity is neat, I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby makh » 2018-01-11 05:45

Hi

@oswaldkelso:
+1 for xfce, that recalls gnome2, but a bit differently.
Nice to hear your thoughts, but I disagree to you, mostly.

ticojohn wrote:Diversity is great. Without it we would be nothing more than a bunch of workers in a hive.
oswaldkelso wrote:
makh wrote:Hi
...

I am not against diversity... but a proper desktop, just like a full proper "Debian Minimal Install". Next you may add anything to use.

@GarryRicketson:
Sir! I am not talking of WMs. Only the "desktops". Routinely, due to Virtualbox, I myself run OB.

@ Steve:
IME a great many open source hackers build the things that they want, or code simply for the joy of it.
> Then theres no need to load to Debian repo or git. If one wants something for others, then it should have some functionality, to benefit other. AKA, it should be usable for Desktop.
Besides, I don't like your picks for the projects everyone should be working on, what makes your favourite applications more deserving than mine?
> It is a general talk on a default desktop of scheming Debian/Linux Distro.
Diversity is neat, I wouldn't have it any other way.
> I agree to it.


Most people to whom I showed Cinnamon, really appreciated the design. But it is heavy, atleast on my system versus xfce.

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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby Innovate » 2018-01-12 08:40

makh wrote:Did you really read my first post or are the usual troll?

Windows & MacOS do not stop you from installing anything you want to. I meant that the base system is small... this makes their Desktops more practical for average users, for many tasks.

Look who's talking, and yet you didn't even answer what I ask
If I didn't read your first post I'd randomly type 1+1=2, posting random meme on your thread & leave long ago.

Before think anyone troll, think again why do I bother to trouble myself reply you here for?
what do I gain from you to do that way? I don't have such abilities to troll anyone.
But I can hit the nail on anyone's head. Especially contradiction speech.

Why so many DE? simple,
- Do you like single DE that the choice that you hate?
See? Unity you don't add to the list because you hate it & don't forget most ppl start with Ubuntu they don't recognize Debian.
- Not everyone like the same thing. We're humans not a cloning.
Sample you like Cinnamon I extremely hate it as Unity the start menu is too big ate half of 18.5 screen extremely annoying.
The more I'm stay the more I'm pissed annoying. I'd rather go KDE or Xfce. Did you even aware why Zorin never pick Cinnamon?

If you want to blame why so many DE, so many distro? <<<blame those silly distro hoppers over there.
Don't you realize? they're the true culprit that cause you dizzy. Install & format reviews every distro everydays
of course this would pissed win users and rant why so many distro. Distrhopper themselves they never realize.
If they focus on main distro then nobody would rant about this from the beginning.
If you already make your mind with any OS you don't even need to wonder why so many at all.


*Sigh* Seems some other fool western speaker over there take an analogy
& if...then... conjuction delusion for strawman argument from reading logic books too much.
Perhaps he's forgot "Analogy" exist in dictionary. Like hell if...then... conjuction can avoid to speak.
Do you think I don't aware some trolls are picking my weakness "if...then...+Analogy speech" for strawman argument?
Last edited by Innovate on 2018-01-12 11:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2018-01-12 09:26

Innovate wrote:*Sigh* Seems some other fool western speaker over there take an analogy & if...then... conjuction for strawman argument from reading logic books too much. Perhaps he's forgot "Analogy" exist in dictionary. Like hell if...then... conjuction can avoid to speak.Do you think I don't aware some trolls are picking my weakness "if...then...+Analogy speech" for strawman argument?


EDIT: Forget about the first part, it was about bester69. Sigh, can you put the quote brackets next time, so that it can't be glossed over?
/EDIT
Is this about me?
First, I don't consider myself to be a westerner. Second, I can hardly understand you, can you be more clear with what you're saying, you sound like a bot.
Third, logic books=books about logical thinking. And no, I don't read many books about logical thinking. Logic is something obviuos, it's meant to be understood, not read about.
Innovate wrote:If you want to blame why so many DE, so many distro? <<<blame those silly distro hoppers over there.Don't you realize? they're the true culprit that cause you dizzy. Install & format reviews every distro everydaysof course this would pissed win users and rant why so many distro. Distrhopper themselves they never realize.

Now, this is something I can agree with. Distro-hopping is a symptom of too many choice. Think about it, what would happen if we had 10s of Windows variants? But in the end, they all could do the same things, only in a slightly different way? Confisering that by paying for one variant, you pay for them all, we would have the same Windows-hopping problem.
Microsoft understands this, so there is only one version of each Windows. Soon, there will be only Windows 10, and who knows?
Maybe after a few years, we will get a Microsofts's version of desktop Linux. They already said Windows 10 will the the last Windows.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby Innovate » 2018-01-12 09:54

Wheelerof4te wrote:Is this about me?
First, I don't consider myself to be a westerner. Second, I can hardly understand you, can you be more clear with what you're saying, you sound like a bot.
Third, logic books=books about logical thinking. And no, I don't read many books about logical thinking. Logic is something obviuos, it's meant to be understood, not read about.

Now, this is something I can agree with. Distro-hopping is a symptom of too many choice. Think about it, what would happen if we had 10s of Windows variants? But in the end, they all could do the same things, only in a slightly different way? We would have the same Windows-hopping problem.
Microsoft understands this, so there is only one version of each Windows. Soon, there will be only Windows 10, and who knows?
Maybe after a few years, we will get a Microsofts's version of desktop Linux. They already said Windows 10 will the the last Windows.

OK thx for warning me, I'll change my way of speech.
& apologize to my devilish personality I cannot stop this personality. Just as you said I'm emotionless.
But one thing for sure I don't have intent to troll anyone. It's just my analogy speech are riddle-talk fill with spikes. Truth can be hurt.

Allow me to confess other sin: I was responsible for That KDE like start menu suggestion to MS Feedback hub.
They take my suggest KDE Start+Cinnamon side icon from 10056 build & implement on 100586 version later on.
Any suggest that they use they'll delete that post after accepted while other suggests still remain in feedback hub.
I feel a bit regret but feel like posioning their w10 sometimes. I never thought they take me seriously that time.
If you notice carefully W10 these day more like KDE5 Startmenu if removed tiles. Cinnamon side menu was my suggestion.

In fact, I already made in ideal winlike distro that surpass Mint, Zorin long ago but I don't want to release.
Because if I do I'll be witch hunt by those troll that said "Why make linux look like windows blah blah" which is annoying.
And Debianies mostly hate it & use wm this is why I didn't post my true desktop screenshots on Debian forum.

Wheelerof4te wrote:Maybe after a few years, we will get a Microsofts's version of desktop Linux. They already said Windows 10 will the the last Windows.

Well If that happen I bet Zorin will lose purpose of winlike distro because copycat can never defeat original.
I think they can do but they're holding back. Those winlike distro exist because they're not waiting MS making.
It's matter of time when will MS make it. Cub/Chromixium was the best sample for make Chrome-like linux
tthat lose purpose from Chrome webstore linux disable for Linux.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby alan stone » 2018-01-12 15:47

makh wrote:1. I dont pretty much understand why do we have so many alternates to ... Maximum 3 developed for standard ... should have been enough.
2. Why there are more than a dozen ... Again ... were more than enough.
3. I like ... more than others, personally. But still there may be some lags in it, but having ..., and all others for same single task.
4. So many ...
5. ... is my choice, but there are so many others, for each ...!
6. ..., more than many, competing each other.
7. Ending the basic default list here. (others: ...)

Why not just have 3/4 main ...

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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby debiman » 2018-01-12 19:20

OP apparently believes that something can objectively be the best.
to me, it is a fallacy of such dimensions that no discussion is possible.

but, playing devil's advocate, if one really believed that, it would indeed make sense to discard 99% of all software. because it's not "The Best".
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby oswaldkelso » 2018-01-12 21:20

As I already run "The best desktop in the world"™. Your search is over folks :-P Discard all that crappy Gnome, KDE and Lenny centric shite. You know I'm right, I mean I must be because I run tbdtitw so you must to. All you keyboard junkies and tiling window manager mob had better just get used to my way! Click & type and tabs in the panel. Discussion not allowed. Bester69 will probably have a heart attack but that's just the way it is. :mrgreen:
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby Innovate » 2018-01-13 00:47

When dev make more software ppl rant = Too many software <<<I do understand too many stuff gonna dizzy.
But....
When dev make less software ppl rant = Linux have less software than Windows <<<WTH?

I think this loop between these 2 will never end. :|

How could I forgot this 3rd reason?
Because build less of them someone gonna make converse accident that linux has less software than Windows instead.
When rant too many software that means converse accident that linux has less software than Windows is extremely false.
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Re: Desktop Applications (20+ for every one task)

Postby pendrachken » 2018-01-13 04:59

ticojohn wrote:Diversity is great. Without it we would be nothing more than a bunch of workers in a hive.



Nothing wrong with Diversity. Unfortunately Linux is absolutely plagued with NIH ( Not Invented Here ) syndrome. Instead of 500 people working on 3-5 projects and adding tons of nice features to these applications we have 500 people working on 400 projects, each of which copies the others but also has a small chance of having one nice feature at the detriment of the rest of the code because the developer just wanted to focus on that feature. Same thing for why the bulk of Linux / OSS stuff is left in working condition but not polished; the grunt work to design and polish isn't as glamorous as shoveling the next project out the door.


Ubuntu is well known for this - Mir, Upstart, Unity, and I'm sure tons of other crap were written just because the other options weren't written by Ubuntu. Not because there were any inherent flaws in the other software, but just plain because it wasn't an Ubuntu project.
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