Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

After the fact stories

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
Message
Author
User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#41 Post by golinux »

Wheelerof4te wrote:
golinux wrote:I'd like to add . . . to remain free is the challenge because freedom is easily lost and its absence only recognized when it is too late. Remain vigilant and understand that comfort and complacency will accelerate freedom's demise.
Don't preach "freedom" here, cause systemd is free and has been free software since the start.
Let's talk about this 'free software' that you praise. Here are some facts. These are the packages that are part of systemd and therefore BANNED from a non-systemd environment:

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt

These packages need attention to remove hard dependencies on systemd. In Devuan we clean up the mess as necessary and provide sanitized packages.:

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/oldpackages.txt

And these packages depend on libsystemd. While that connection is currently rather benign, there is a good chance that could change in the future. We are watching this closely.

https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/libsystemd.txt

Note that with each release the ties and lockins increase. This is not 'free' software, it is 'conditional' software and that's why so many of us have our knickers in a twist.
It is used and improved by the largest free software and Linux kernel contributor to date, Red Hat. Without Red Hat, we would not have mainstream Linux right now. Especially in the server arena.
Just a corporate wolf in sheep's clothing. Time to wake up and smell the bottom line. 'Mainstreaming' Linux will eventually destroy it. That's the point. Users lose. Red Hat profits.
And then someone comes in and dares to mock people who have been working very hard for so long to bring Linux to so many users.
It's shameful.
No it's not. I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
May the FORK be with you!

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#42 Post by steve_v »

golinux wrote:I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
This. I gave systemd a fair trial, I was patient. It only got worse.
I'll probably see you over on the Devuan board sometime soon, I'm currently in the process of compiling the last of the stuff I need to upgrade my lil' home server from Jessie to... Jessie. :)

There is a point where the aggravation of systemds invasive behaviour exceeds the hassle of weeding it out (and free-time exists to do so). I was going to wait for ASCII, but since this box isn't running a desktop there are fewer blockers.
So far all is going according to plan, so I expect my other boxen will follow soon. The KDE problem remains to be solved, however.

Seeing "INIT: version 2.88 booting" scroll by again, it was beautiful. And all my custom init scripts work again (including one that I had forgotten even existed). :mrgreen:
I can't tell the difference as far as boot times either. :P

Thanks for starting this thread, it has rekindled my anger, and spurred me to action.

How is ASCII coming along, BTW?
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#43 Post by golinux »

steve_v wrote:
golinux wrote:I'll stop when systemd returns to being ONLY an init system and stops making non-init-related software dependent on anything systemd.
This. I gave systemd a fair trial, I was patient. It only got worse.
I'll probably see you over on the Devuan board sometime soon . . .
See you there! IRC channels are also quite active.
Thanks for starting this thread, it has rekindled my anger, and spurred me to action.
YW.
How is ASCII coming along, BTW?
ASCII is coming along quite well. Devuan servers are running on it as are many desktops. Hopefully an official release soon.
May the FORK be with you!

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: After the fact stories

#44 Post by Wheelerof4te »

HuangLao wrote:
Wheelerof4te wrote: And your answer is to run decades old code which has many known flaws and will not be maintained officially ever?
there is alot of FUD in this thread regarding the status of systemd. the above qoute is one example: sysV has a new maintainer and BTW, 1/4 of Linux distros still use sysV.
https://www.linuxquestions.org/question ... 175621335/
I heard about it. New and only maintainer. That's far from official support in my book, that's why I wrote the word "officially". Not that I wouldn't mind if more people take up work to maintain it.
Regarding the 1/4 of Linux distros that still use sysV. Well, that was one of my major points in the previous posts. There are distros that reject systemd, so why don't people use them instead of complaining here on DUF. Last I checked, Debian has switched to systemd.

bdtc1
Posts: 42
Joined: 2015-01-22 09:00

Re: After the fact stories

#45 Post by bdtc1 »

Wheelerof4te wrote: Debian has switched to systemd.
sysvinit-core is available Debian for all versions, thus "sysv vs systemd" is still a valid topic for Debian-related discussions.

There are legitimate concerns on each side, and nothing has been "settled".

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#46 Post by steve_v »

Well I can now say that Devuan is a fine choice for a systemd-free server... and a large sack of frustration if you want to run modern Gnome or KDE and actually achieve anything useful with it.
I've now migrated across all 3 release channels, and none are up to running Plasma, Gnome3 or even Cinnamon properly. Mate runs pretty well, if you like a 15 year old DE and don't mind the odd "issue" with the display manager.
XFCE runs very well, at least as far as i have tested it. Not really a big fan though, unless I need something to put on properly anaemic hardware.

Overall, it's better than I expected. I'll probably keep it on my "canary" fileserver. But I couldn't recommend it as a desktop distro unless you're nostalgic for that 1999 style "mostly works" experience.
I guess I'll wait and see if the stable ascii release fixes any of this. XLennart is keeping me entertained in the meantime. :twisted:

Is it just me, or is the spambot activity unusually heavy in here today?
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 132 times

Re: After the fact stories

#47 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

steve_v wrote:is the spambot activity unusually heavy in here today?
Oh yes :cry:

On topic: despite my dislike of systemd, I've been running it on family laptop (Debian stable) for over three years now with no trouble at all.
deadbang

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: After the fact stories

#48 Post by n_hologram »

Speaking of init systems, has anyone tried sinit? I wanted to use it in my VM, but booting it threw an execvp error that I couldn't diagnose at the time. I really like the philosophy behind the init, though.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#49 Post by golinux »

steve_v wrote:Well I can now say that Devuan is a fine choice for a systemd-free server...
Exactly. Early on there was discussion of dropping desktop support entirely from Devuan. But USERS took up the challenge to provide functional desktop/WM options that could be included.
. . . and a large sack of frustration if you want to run modern Gnome or KDE and actually achieve anything useful with it.
Did you even consider turning that frustration into ACTION? Or do you just want to sit back and be a passive consumer that's handed a shiny, shiny OOTB?? I haven't seen any recent KDE discussion on IRC, mailing list or much on the forum so I would say that your efforts to work things out have been minimal.
I've now migrated across all 3 release channels, and none are up to running Plasma, Gnome3 or even Cinnamon properly.
And they won't until someone LIKE YOU who wants to use those behemoths takes on the challenge to fix them.
Mate runs pretty well, if you like a 15 year old DE and don't mind the odd "issue" with the display manager.
There's that shiny, shiny mentality again. ;)
XFCE runs very well, at least as far as i have tested it. Not really a big fan though, unless I need something to put on properly anaemic hardware.
Xfce runs really well. I see you like shiny, shiny hardware too.
Overall, it's better than I expected. I'll probably keep it on my "canary" fileserver. But I couldn't recommend it as a desktop distro unless you're nostalgic for that 1999 style "mostly works" experience.
I guess I'll wait and see if the stable ascii release fixes any of this.
It won't unless someone like YOU wants to scratch that itch.

Now you can go back to playing XLennart. :D
May the FORK be with you!

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#50 Post by steve_v »

golinux wrote:Did you even consider turning that frustration into ACTION?
A couple of days of "action", before realising that the required components simply do not exist. I have a day job.
golinux wrote:And they won't until someone LIKE YOU who wants to use those behemoths takes on the challenge to fix them.
As far as I can see, it's not about "fixing" anything. A component to provide the missing interfaces on the bus simply doesn't exist, and nobody is working on one. I have neither the time nor the skill (aka time) to start that. See comment on day job.
The attitude to missing functionality here appears to be either a) use an ancient version of the offending component, or b) invent reasons that no-one actually needs it in the first place.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, but documentation on the state of various packages and the changes made to fix them is simply non existent. The documentation that does exist looks suspiciously like a straight up sed -e 's/debian/devuan/g'.
golinux wrote:There's that shiny, shiny mentality again.
I hated gnome 2.x when it was first released, and I still hate it now. If KDE4, or even KDE3 was in the repos (and worked), that would do fine.
My dislike of Mate is not about age, per se, but about the ridiculous removing of features and customisability that started in gnome around v2.0. Mate is based on a gnome from that period, and it shows.
golinux wrote:It won't unless someone like YOU wants to scratch that itch.
Right. So it works on a server, xfce works, nobody wants anything more. Cool, shall we just call it done then?
If that's really the way it is, you should have dropped desktop support.

If, as you say, a real desktop working on devuan is dependent on my efforts alone, then sorry, I don't have that much free time.
If development of such features is already going on somewhere where I can contribute the time I do have, let me know and I'll join the team.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: After the fact stories

#51 Post by n_hologram »

@steve_v: I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues. You should try it out sometime.

As far as dropping support for desktop, most lightweight, portable (as in porting to another *nix) environments run fine, so that seems like an odd suggestion. I have a pretty demanding day job, but would take a from-scratch openbox/dwm desktop any day over a mainstream one, and devuan is preferable for such a goal.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#52 Post by steve_v »

n_hologram wrote:I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues.
On Jessie, sure. But Jessies libc is too old for other things I need, so...
On that, I'm seriously considering going back to slackware, which has both.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: After the fact stories

#53 Post by n_hologram »

Slackware is legit. What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#54 Post by steve_v »

n_hologram wrote:What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
Plasma 5.10 on buster/testing, because Plasma 5.8.6 (stable) is full of bugs and KDE4 is not available on anything newer than Jessie.

And yeah, I started out with Slackware, back in '98. Got kinda used to the automation (apt, mainly) in Debian though.
Alienbob's slackware-live iso is downloading now.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
Mad_7
Posts: 111
Joined: 2010-01-09 21:05
Location: Patra, Greece, Europe.

Re: After the fact stories

#55 Post by Mad_7 »

n_hologram wrote:@steve_v: I have installed KDE4 in Devuan before, and never experienced any issues. You should try it out sometime.
If you're like me and you worked with KDE3 at past, you may want to try Trinity desktop as well.
For the glorious men, every land is a grave.
Pericles' Funeral Oration. Thucydides.

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: After the fact stories

#56 Post by n_hologram »

I have, actually. It's a solid project. KDE3/5 really aren't my cup of tea, though, but if KDE3 were, I'd probably run Trinity ^_^
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

User avatar
HuangLao
Posts: 485
Joined: 2015-01-27 01:31
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#57 Post by HuangLao »

steve_v wrote:
n_hologram wrote:What DE and Debian version are you currently running?
Plasma 5.10 on buster/testing, because Plasma 5.8.6 (stable) is full of bugs and KDE4 is not available on anything newer than Jessie.

And yeah, I started out with Slackware, back in '98. Got kinda used to the automation (apt, mainly) in Debian though.
Alienbob's slackware-live iso is downloading now.
:D
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... for+wheezy

there is also Salix which uses slapt-get and gslapt (graphical, similar to synaptic), also has extra packages to save from compiling as much. Or you can use slapt-get with Slackware and use Salix as an extra repo. https://salixos.org/

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1398
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: After the fact stories

#58 Post by steve_v »

Probably the main thing holding back me re. Slackware is that mutilib is still a complete PITA. I'll take apt install <pkgname>:i386 over manually rebuilding packages from the 32bit distro anyday.
I don't mind slackbuilds / compiling so long as the bulk of what I need has binaries. I ran LFS for a while - entertaining, but not something I want to repeat right now.

Salix seems ever more keen to eradicate QT from their repos as late, and AFAIK they don't package KDE at all any more. So that leaves running Slackware + Salix repos and ending up with a bit of a mess WRT package managers.
I''ll have to experiment to see how well slapt-get works in practice.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
HuangLao
Posts: 485
Joined: 2015-01-27 01:31
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#59 Post by HuangLao »

steve_v wrote:Probably the main thing holding back me re. Slackware is that mutilib is still a complete PITA. I'll take apt install <pkgname>:i386 over manually rebuilding packages from the 32bit distro anyday.
I don't mind slackbuilds / compiling so long as the bulk of what I need has binaries. I ran LFS for a while - entertaining, but not something I want to repeat right now.

Salix seems ever more keen to eradicate QT from their repos as late, and AFAIK they don't package KDE at all any more. So that leaves running Slackware + Salix repos and ending up with a bit of a mess WRT package managers.
I''ll have to experiment to see how well slapt-get works in practice.
alienbob (Eric H. a Slackware dev.) packages multilib, easy to use.
http://slackware.uk/people/alien/multilib/14.2/
https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:multilib
https://alien.slackbook.org/blog/

regarding Salix, their qt and KDE packages come straight from Slackware and since KDE is a popular DE with Slackware dev.'s its not going away anytime soon.... One can use the Salix install CD and either install full (Xfce) and then add KDE after booting into new OS, or choose basic or core and build up similar to Debian net install.

User avatar
golinux
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: After the fact stories

#60 Post by golinux »

steve_v wrote:I have a day job.
Most of the devs at Devuan do also.
I have neither the time nor the skill (aka time) to start that. See comment on day job.
See comment on day job.
The attitude to missing functionality here appears to be either a) use an ancient version of the offending component, or b) invent reasons that no-one actually needs it in the first place.
'Want' is different from 'need' though they are often confused.
I hated gnome 2.x when it was first released, and I still hate it now.
I didn't mind gnome2. Gnome3 was a different story.
If KDE4, or even KDE3 was in the repos (and worked), that would do fine.
You can get Trinity DE here. There has been discussion of getting it packaged for Devuan but no one has stepped forward to do it.
My dislike of Mate is not about age, per se, but about the ridiculous removing of features and customisability that started in gnome around v2.0. Mate is based on a gnome from that period, and it shows.
We've all got that you don't like it. So don't use it. A lot of Devuan users do like and use it.
Right. So it works on a server, xfce works, nobody wants anything more. Cool, shall we just call it done then?
In addition to Xfce and Mate, WMs like openbox, i3, xdm etc. are quite popular with Devuan users. Other options aren't available because no one there wants (or "needs" LOL) them.
If that's really the way it is, you should have dropped desktop support.
Why? We have plenty of happy Desktop/WM users.
If, as you say, a real desktop working on devuan is dependent on my efforts alone, then sorry, I don't have that much free time. If development of such features is already going on somewhere where I can contribute the time I do have, let me know and I'll join the team.
That would depend on your definition of a 'REAL' desktop. ;) AntoFox is working on Cinnamon. Feel free to fork and improve the elements you found non-functional. But I suspect the other options like Slackware would suit you better.
May the FORK be with you!

Post Reply