Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Year of the Linux Desktop is near

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
Message
Author
steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1395
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#41 Post by steve_v »

debiman wrote:there is absolutely no benefit from "recruiting ex-windows users" or some such
Unless those users are motivated to learn, rather than whine about needing to use the command-line from time to time or not having shiny app [x] that nobody has written.
I've had people I'm trying to help get abusive because I suggested running something in a terminal or changing a config file, nobody needs this.
debiman wrote:there's no point in "masking" the configuration behind a "userfriendly" gui & overly-polite forums, only to get more users - more broken software - more misunderstanding - more problems.
I've been saying it from day one.
Running GNU/Linux on the desktop, with a GUI, that's just is fine. And it works very well. Hiding the OS behind a shiny GUI and promoting it as "simple" and "newb friendly" just discourages users form learning how their machine actually works.
GNU/Linux is built and improved upon by its community, because a large portion of that community understands the plumbing. Hide the gearbox, and soon nobody will know how to drive a manual.

IMO, this is the same reason that while nearly everyone has a computer of some kind, very few can even code "hello world".
On a C64, you couldn't do anything without writing some rudimentary code, even if it was simply to load another file. On a modern Windows desktop you don't have a compiler installed by default, or even a usable command interpreter. WTH happened to MS-BASIC anyway?
Please, let's not make "desktop linux" like this too. Keep the gearbox where people can see it and mess with it.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
bw123
Posts: 4015
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#42 Post by bw123 »

steve_v wrote:
WTH happened to MS-BASIC anyway?
You probably already know, but the way I remember it, the GUI became the OS, basically making the shell irrelevant sometime around 95-98. Basic wasn't ever a real dev tool, it was a sample to get people interested in programming. The tools to build 'real' apps were only available if you paid for them, some were very expensive, and very complicated. Object oriented libs and other dev tools were for making money, most hobbyists just couldn't afford the investment. I don't know how it works now.
steve_v wrote:
Please, let's not make "desktop linux" like this too. Keep the gearbox where people can see it and mess with it.
Might be too late? How many lines of code would it take to create a gtk window and output 'hello world' to it?
Last edited by bw123 on 2018-02-20 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
resigned by AI ChatGPT

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1395
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#43 Post by steve_v »

bw123 wrote:How many lines of code would it take to create a gtk window and output 'hello world' to it?
Dunno, I don't use GTK.
With QT: far too many, I might count one day. With Xlib: 17. To a text console, 5.

My point is that most linux distros still come with a compiler, documentation, a scriptable command interpreter, and human-readable configuration. The also tend to come with enough rough edges that a user might stumble onto these things. :P
Aside, the not-human-readable startup process is one of the things I don't like about systemd... and various other recent developments.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
sunrat
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6382
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#44 Post by sunrat »

Don't know about gtk either but I am l33t h4x0r coder! And only a single line. ;)

Code: Select all

$ notify-send 'hello world'
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!

User avatar
nikobit
Posts: 120
Joined: 2009-02-08 19:40
Location: Moscow, Russia
Has thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#45 Post by nikobit »

Don't know about gtk either but I am l33t h4x0r coder!
I do possess absolute zero knowledge in coding. But due to frequent Debian/GNU use even me is able to shorten your one line to less characters.

Code: Select all

$ echo 'hello world'
. My point is someone has to do coding. Others have to make them popular. For example, no one could realize how brilliant Steve Wozniak is unless Jobs would promote their ideas with powerful enthusiasm. Same thing about Linux/GNU/Debian. I have no clue how to code my way out of stuck 'full system upgrade' but have enough desire and wish to advertise my ancient 'maemo' based Nokia N9 to all who is curious to ask: "What is this thing of yours and what OS is on it?". Sometimes one have to promote things the best way possible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  • OS: Debian 11 bullseye
  • Kernel: x86_64 Linux 5.10.0-19-amd64
  • Shell: bash
  • DE: GNOME 3.38.4
  • CPU: Intel Core i7-4790 @ 8x 4GHz
  • GPU: NVE4
  • RAM: 2384MiB / 15925MiB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#46 Post by Wheelerof4te »

This one made me chuckle:
Debian available on Windows 10 as part of WSL
But hatts off to the Debian elite veteran warrior squad, at least you tried.
Last edited by Wheelerof4te on 2018-03-07 13:26, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mike acker
Posts: 131
Joined: 2017-06-28 21:23

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#47 Post by mike acker »

Lysander wrote: --snip

Well, the telemetry employed by W10 did push some people over to Linux. As did the adoption of Steam for some others. However, market share appears to have dropped on the desktop in recent months. There was a period in the summer where it flirted with 3% but now it's back down. Maybe some people had time to experiment over the holidays only to revert to Windows.
It seems like there are lots of computer customers who are mainly interested in an "appliance". That's OK. Me? My main interest is in limiting the degree to which my computer is exploited by commercial and advertising interests. I like FOSS and love Linux. At the same time I clearly see such things "are not for everyone". And that's "OK".
Viva la Resistencia

steve_v
df -h | grep > 20TiB
df -h | grep > 20TiB
Posts: 1395
Joined: 2012-10-06 05:31
Location: /dev/chair
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#48 Post by steve_v »

Wheelerof4te wrote:hatts off to the Debian elite veteran warrior squad, at least you tried.
I wasn't aware this so-called "elite veteran warrior squad" was up to something, and if they were, I doubt it had anything to do with that other OS or it's virtualisation layer. What's your point?

I don't really grok why so many are getting agitated about this "WSL" gizmo anyway. Some OS I don't want to use has a new feature that makes it suck slightly less, by virtualising one that sucks a lot less. Yawn.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

User avatar
Lysander
Posts: 643
Joined: 2017-02-23 10:07
Location: London
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#49 Post by Lysander »

steve_v wrote:I don't really grok why so many are getting agitated about this "WSL" gizmo anyway. Some OS I don't want to use has a new feature that makes it suck slightly less, by virtualising one that sucks a lot less. Yawn.
Because people don't trust MS and because MS are insidious. Exactly how does it benefit them to have Ubuntu/Fedora/SUSE functionality on WSL? It's too early to say. But they're not doing it for charity. And now it seems one can run Kali and Debian from WSL - I wasn't aware this was the case with Debian. It's suspicious. Look at this magazine cover - does it not make you feel a little uncomfortable?

MS are well-known for thinking years in advance in order to expand their business. It would surprise no-one if MS bought Canonical and then owned Ubuntu to the view to making it activation-only. Linux on the desktop is still an untapped market and someone will come along and monetise it. It's not a question of 'if' but 'when'.

Year of the Linux desktop is getting less and less to be 'meme' and more of a reality. I would imagine big advances will be made in this area in the next ten years.

If you think this is a leap of faith, consider systemd. Years ago it would have been unthinkable for Debian to adopt it, but adopt it it did, through whatever means [which were themselves dubious]. MS are up to something - this isn't techno-cyber-tinfoil-hattery: it's business, which MS happen to be very good at.
Wheelerof4te wrote:the Debian elite veteran warrior squad
I can but dream.

User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 5343
Joined: 2009-10-05 07:54
Location: enzed
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#50 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Lysander wrote:
Wheelerof4te wrote:the Debian elite veteran warrior squad
I can but dream.
Dream no more
Image
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...


User avatar
mike acker
Posts: 131
Joined: 2017-06-28 21:23

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#52 Post by mike acker »

dilberts_left_nut wrote: I can but dream.
Dream no more
This post is inappropriate: I Object.
Viva la Resistencia

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#53 Post by n_hologram »

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 15#p666261
Wheelerof4te wrote:don't expect any wise words and ideological discussions from me on this forum.
Welcome back.
hatts off to the Debian elite veteran warrior squad
I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea if you mean vanilla Debian devs, or the Debian users criticized in your second "leaving" thread.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#54 Post by Wheelerof4te »

n_hologram wrote:Welcome back.
I guess that I was a bit sceptical to post the news, but it was far too important to ignore. Sorry if that has upset you.
n_hologram wrote: I have no idea if you mean vanilla Debian devs, or the Debian users criticized in your second "leaving" thread.
This is a valid question. It could be both in a way. Devs, for allowing this in the first place. Ubuntu on Windows? Sure, why not, makes sense.
But Debian? Hell no, if endorsing and promoting free software is it's declared mission.
Veteran users, for failling to see a bigger picture, painting it with rose colours like they are protecting some mystical fairyland. Alas, real world has different rules.
I don't know wheater to be sad, or angry.

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#55 Post by n_hologram »

None of that answered my question. Surely you had a clear definition in mind when posting that. I'm wondering which it was in the original post.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#56 Post by Wheelerof4te »

n_hologram wrote: I'm wondering which it was in the original post.
You mean, in my first "leave" thread? The same people who allowed that Debian be ported to Windows. Debian is the furthest thing from Windows, besides both being an OS.

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near

#57 Post by n_hologram »

Wheelerof4te wrote:The same people who allowed that Debian be ported to Windows.
Being free software, I believe Debian allows itself to be ported [citation needed]. But the interests of the group that did the actual porting are also of some interest.

I'm a little sympathetic to this aim, because many work computers (unfortunately) swear by Windows, whereas I can pull-off far more sensible approaches to the same task with Linux cli tools. With that being said, I'm interested in the differences between this project and cygwin...
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 132 times

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#58 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

steve_v wrote:virtualisation layer
Actually the Windows Subsystem for Linux offers a kernel interface for a full (GNU) userspace so it's not virtualised at all, the limitation is that any programs run under it cannot make use of syscalls; it's mainly intended for developers.
Wheelerof4te wrote:Devs, for allowing this in the first place.
You do understand that Debian's licensing expressly forbids them from stopping Microsoft's WSL developers adding Debian to their "app" store, right?

That's why they couldn't stop Shuttlecock and the Comical crew... :mrgreen:

EDIT: also, Kali is now available in Windows:

https://www.kali.org/news/kali-linux-in ... app-store/

^ This could be really good for us, we can just start telling all the h4x0r wannabes to use Win10 instead :twisted:
deadbang

User avatar
HuangLao
Posts: 485
Joined: 2015-01-27 01:31
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#59 Post by HuangLao »

Wheelerof4te wrote:This one made me chuckle:
Debian available on Windows 10 as part of WSL
But hatts off to the Debian elite veteran warrior squad, at least you tried.

reality is that for some years now more and more *buntu users and Windows users are becoming/have become dev.'s for Debian, first it was falling to systemd now this...Both moves could not be any further from the goals of original Debian (choice, FOSS, community distro for "all" etc...), so much for increasing the partnership/cooperation with FSF as stated in several lectures by FSF and Debian.

I agree with Lysander, I think this is a long term strategy of Extend, Embrace, Extinguish, they did this before with Novell/SUSE, but with patents. Now they are going to try another scheme. It's one thing for Ubuntu, openSUSE to be available, but Debian should have said FU. But this is the kind of crap you get when distros lose focus and allow new kiddies to run the machinery, instead of tilling the soil and harvesting the corn we get bizarre crop circles in the shape of phallic symbols.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/19/penis-sha ... t-6584860/

n_hologram
Posts: 459
Joined: 2013-06-16 00:10

Re: Year of the Linux Desktop is near...on Windows

#60 Post by n_hologram »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:EDIT: also, Kali is now available in Windows...This could be really good for us, we can just start telling all the h4x0r wannabes to use Win10 instead :twisted:
Finally.
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing
the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...

Post Reply