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DUF is (not) Debian

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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NFT5
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Re: DUF is not Debian

#41 Post by NFT5 »

Depends on how hard you try, golinux.

We experienced similar a few years ago and, as I mentioned, forum activity dropped as the more instant gratification of Facebook offered what the entitled generation wanted. The effect was compounded by the manufacturer changing marketing emphasis and targeting the younger generation with a cheaper product.

But, many came back and membership is growing again with new members prepared to live with the way that forum operates for the advantage of having the information they want, available.

n_hologram
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Re: DUF is not Debian

#42 Post by n_hologram »

NTF5: in addition, other forums have features that will skim posts for whether or not that content already exists. In other communities, including (interestingly) Ubuntu's, it encourages individual research through some level of personal guilt, because it sends a message of "I can't believe you didn't type this into the search bar, way to go." However, as you said, that would require work that may never be invested. It would also take away from the whole "do your own research without someone telling you first" approach ;) To his credit, though, this thread's creator is a consistent advocate for new users' questions.

Trying to really understand the backends that are now completely overshadowed by frontends (power managers and the like) is quite confusing. There are questions that you never knew to ask until certain situations arise. Sometimes there are small search terms or principles that you may be blissfully unaware of, traces of obscure features in the backend that may not be immediately obvious, even after reading and personal research.

What I've seen change the most in seven years of using some form of linux is the priority on frontends with convoluted backends; it was a practice that I find disinteresting and brought me to Debian in the first place, and paradoxically, the distro I chose as a way to get around that is now suffering from that root cause. Because of systemd, for example, one cannot easily use a desktop environment's power or session manager without either relying on systemd utilities (I think the big one was libpam/policykit-1 or something), or blindly crapshooting through other utilities which may or may not be related to one's issue, finding unrelated posts and users who post simple answers, too. Let's be fair: how much has power management and network interfacing changed in the last few years? (And which company had the greatest influence in determining that change? Countless documentations are now completely obsolete, but not because users demanded they be, and not because it solved any user-driven issues, either.) I find it understandable that most users face this and succumb to an easier route, even if that route is abandoning linux, because if the answers lie beneath layers of corporate decisions, there's really no difference.

And in defense of the oblivious and the oblivious-to-be, it's also understandable why these simple questions will overwhelm our communities, because users want a nice frontend -- until it stops working. Unlike RHEL Enterprise users, they will have no one who gets paid to answer questions, and will increasingly rely on volunteers: aka, us. RHEL makes money off this for the same reasons as Apple and Volkswagen; easy solutions are not a profitable industry.

Unfortunately, there is no Debian paid support, yet Debian's ecosystem is now rooted in new layers of a corporate distribution's actions. Here we are back at the original point. The impetus behind this thread's original post exemplifies the dead optimism that comes to life in the same way as a mannequin: namely, there is no linux revolution in an environment where corporate interests take precedence. If users are the revolution, it is clear that Debian novices are not interested in revolt, and those who are have begun other projects or invested themselves in other Debian derivatives.

I don't see that changing.
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Re: DUF is not Debian

#43 Post by golinux »

@n_hologram . . . well said.
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Re: DUF is not Debian

#44 Post by bw123 »

golinux wrote:@n_hologram . . . well said.
That was a great post, but the issue about power management rang a bell for me...
n_hologram wrote: Because of systemd, for example, one cannot easily use a desktop environment's power or session manager without either relying on systemd utilities (I think the big one was libpam/policykit-1 or something), or blindly crapshooting through other utilities which may or may not be related to one's issue, finding unrelated posts and users who post simple answers, too. Let's be fair: how much has power management and network interfacing changed in the last few years?
I don't know how much power management has changed, but it still sucks, and it sucked before systemd. Power management is complicated, but it's not systemd that made it that way...

On the thing about new users wanting to take the easy way out... well, yeah I was the same way. I probably posted a dozen or more simple questions on here when I was a newbie. I still get confused over simple things sometimes. I don't think the forum should change, or try to restrict anything through automatic censoring or extreme moderating or approving posts.

I think we should all remember what it was like to be brand new to linux, and help people learn to help themselves and how to find the info. And try to clean up the lame posts with good links to current information, all the while realizing that the posts we make may be obsolete in the future.
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Re: DUF is not Debian

#45 Post by Dai_trying »

+101
bw123 wrote:I think we should all remember what it was like to be brand new to linux, and help people learn to help themselves and how to find the info. And try to clean up the lame posts with good links to current information, all the while realizing that the posts we make may be obsolete in the future.

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Re: DUF is not Debian

#46 Post by Wheelerof4te »

@bw123 and n_hologram
There are some really nice posts on the previous page, and yours in particular are ones of the best seen on this forums as far as I recall.
bw123 wrote: And try to clean up the lame posts with good links to current information, all the while realizing that the posts we make may be obsolete in the future.
This is the first time I see someone actually mentions the fact that information new users seek now may be different than the one found in old answers. As each new Debian version is radically different than the previous one, it makes sense to ask the same question again every once in a while.

In fact, you have countered my original post, and proved that this forum has the quality of Debian itself.

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Re: DUF is not Debian

#47 Post by golinux »

Wheelerof4te wrote: As each new Debian version is radically different than the previous one, it makes sense to ask the same question again every once in a while.
There has only been one "radically different" Debian version and that was the move to systemd. The current unholy mess which requires "retraining" replaces code that had remained modular and stable for a very long time. That shift is undoubtedly by design as suggested in n_hologram's excellent summary of the corporate doodoo in which Debian is now buried.

This was foreshadowed by the Gnome/GTK3 fiasco. Same mentality.
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Re: DUF is (not) Debian

#48 Post by Wheelerof4te »

^Don't you worry, there is no corporate doodooers in Debi...
*sees Debian on the WSL*
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Re: DUF is (not) Debian

#49 Post by golinux »

Wheelerof4te wrote:^Don't you worry, there is no corporate doodooers in Debi...
*sees Debian on the WSL*
*SCREAMS IN AGONY*
I suggest that you research the affiliations of the members of the Debian technical committee.
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Re: DUF is (not) Debian

#50 Post by acewiza »

Spoon-feeding babies is how they grow. :wink:
Nobody would ever ask questions If everyone possessed encyclopedic knowledge of the man pages.

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Re: DUF is (not) Debian

#51 Post by n_hologram »

@bw123: with reference to power managing, I only remember a lot of driver issues back in the day. The only issues I used to have were with things like "help, Im a poor college kid and can't buy Linux-compatible hardware."

I dont miss those days.

That said, I'm not aware of any power managing issues that systemd has actually improved, either. My point was more along the lines of, systemd added no noticeable improvements, but did make a bunch of useful documentation obsolete. That isnt a framework I want to endorse.
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