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What is the point of PulseAudio?
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
The way Steve briefly described it to me was that, apulse tricks firefox into seeing pulseaudio as installed when pulseaudio is actually not installed.Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Segfault wrote: No, it doesn't
Maybe if Steve see ours posts perhaps he could clear things up a bit.
Also if Segfault revisits this thread, I for one would be interested to know which config options to disable when compiling, it might actually get me interested enough to give it a go.
I posted two other threads concerning firefox version changes in the off topic section. One post concerning the stable and nightly versions released upstream that require pulseaudio by default. Stable version 51 and Nightly version 52 iirc
And the second post warns of the movement of the bookmarks data storage location.
It includes bookmark behavior oddities I noticed after upgrade to versions using the new bookmark storage location.
In memory of Ian Ashley Murdock (1973 - 2015) founder of the Debian project.
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
This mozconfig is from a Gentoo box, but you can see the options you are interested in.
Code: Select all
# This Source Code Form is subject to the terms of the Mozilla Public
# License, v. 2.0. If a copy of the MPL was not distributed with this
# file, You can obtain one at http://mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/.
# This file specifies the build flags for Firefox. You can use it by adding:
# . $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig
# to the top of your mozconfig file.
ac_add_options --enable-application=browser
ac_add_options --enable-optimize=-O2 # Workaround known breakage
ac_add_options --disable-updater # disable_update_strip
ac_add_options --disable-strip # disable_update_strip
ac_add_options --disable-install-strip # disable_update_strip
ac_add_options --with-system-zlib # system_libs
ac_add_options --with-system-bz2 # system_libs
ac_add_options --enable-release # Enable by Gentoo
ac_add_options --enable-gold # tc-ld-is-gold=true
ac_add_options --enable-official-branding # +!bindist
ac_add_options --enable-pie # enabled by Gentoo
ac_add_options --disable-debug # -debug
ac_add_options --disable-tests # -debug
ac_add_options --disable-debug-symbols # disabled by Gentoo
ac_add_options --disable-startup-notification # -startup-notification
ac_add_options --disable-necko-wifi # -wifi
ac_add_options --disable-dbus # -dbus
ac_add_options --with-system-nspr #
ac_add_options --with-nspr-prefix=/usr #
ac_add_options --with-system-nss #
ac_add_options --with-nss-prefix=/usr #
ac_add_options --x-includes=/usr/include #
ac_add_options --x-libraries=/usr/lib64 #
ac_add_options --with-system-libevent=/usr #
ac_add_options --prefix=/usr #
ac_add_options --libdir=/usr/lib64 #
ac_add_options --enable-system-hunspell # Gentoo default
ac_add_options --disable-crashreporter #
ac_add_options --with-system-png # Gentoo default
ac_add_options --enable-system-ffi #
ac_add_options --disable-gconf #
ac_add_options --with-intl-api #
ac_add_options --enable-skia #
ac_add_options --enable-default-toolkit=cairo-gtk3 #
ac_add_options --target=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu #
ac_add_options --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu #
ac_add_options --disable-pulseaudio # -pulseaudio
ac_add_options --enable-alsa # -pulseaudio
ac_add_options --enable-content-sandbox # Sandbox
ac_add_options --enable-system-sqlite # +system-sqlite
ac_add_options --with-system-jpeg # +system-jpeg
ac_add_options --with-system-icu # +system-icu
ac_add_options --with-system-libvpx # +system-libvpx
ac_add_options --with-system-harfbuzz # +system-harfbuzz
ac_add_options --with-system-graphite2 # +system-harfbuzz
ac_add_options --disable-jack # -jack
ac_add_options --with-google-api-keyfile=/home/notmpfs/portage/www-client/firefox-58.0.1/work/firefox-58.0.1/google-api-key #
mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=/home/notmpfs/portage/www-client/firefox-58.0.1/work/firefox-58.0.1/ff
mk_add_options XARGS=/usr/bin/xargs
ac_add_options --enable-extensions=default
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
thanks Seg
I wonder what behavior changes I'll see if I disable gtk 3
iirc
the new gtk brings depends, that brings more systemd in debian, at least so far, although it seems to be better than it used to be, at least in the newer stuff.
I wonder how that is will read to anyone else besides me?
I wonder what behavior changes I'll see if I disable gtk 3
iirc
the new gtk brings depends, that brings more systemd in debian, at least so far, although it seems to be better than it used to be, at least in the newer stuff.
I wonder how that is will read to anyone else besides me?
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
To repeat: I *do not* have PulseAudio installed in any of my GNU/Linux systems and firefox (both Quantum and ESR) works just fine in all my various boxen.Segfault wrote:OK, you are using apulse instead of PA. It is still a dependency.
There is *no* hard requirement for PA in firefox, please stop spreading FUD
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
I highly recommend it. Going back to Gentoo after ~11 years of Arch and Debian was like the rails under me just vanished. So much freedom of choice.Segfault wrote:Perhaps it is time to switch to Gentoo.
I didn't realise just how restricted my choices were, but it was steadily grating on my nerves. Now I have a GNU/Linux system that is set up how I want it again, with no griping, no hacking away at overengineered build systems or dodgy third-party repos, no strange distro-specific configuration, just upstream code and some tools to compile it with.
Gentoo isn't systemd-free, it's systemd-optional.Segfault wrote:No systemd here. GTK+ both 2 and 3 can be built systemd free.
As Debian should be...
There is a hard requirement for a pulseaudio-compatible API in firefox as available in the Debian repos. Whether that is provided by pulseaudio itself or the partial implementation in apulse is irrelevant. Firefox in Debian *requires* the pulseaudio API for working sound.Head_on_a_Stick wrote:There is *no* hard requirement for PA in firefox, please stop spreading FUD
You could call it a "soft" dependency if you don't want audio to work, but that is missing the point.
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
That's just silly.steve_v wrote:There is a hard requirement for a pulseaudio-compatible API in firefox as available in the Debian repos. Whether that is provided by pulseaudio itself or the partial implementation in apulse is irrelevant. Firefox in Debian *requires* the pulseaudio API for working sound.Head_on_a_Stick wrote:There is *no* hard requirement for PA in firefox, please stop spreading FUD
You could call it a "soft" dependency if you don't want audio to work, but that is missing the point.
I don't have PA installed and I don't have PA running; apulse isn't a program that runs, it's just an interface to ALSA so there is no extra overhead.
Your objections to a "pulseaudio-compatible API" are ridiculous and nonsensical, I'm guessing that you are one of those crazy "tentacle" people?
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
Firefox requires pulseaudio, and apulse fools it into thinking it is installed with libraries of the same names and LD_LIBRARY_PATH tricks. Firefox then calls code in those libraries, so it does indeed "run".Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I don't have PA installed and I don't have PA running; apulse isn't a program that runs, it's just an interface to ALSA so there is no extra overhead.
No, you don't need the real pulseaudio installed, but that this crafty hack is possible in no way invalidates the claim. Firefox requires something that, to it, is indistinguishable from pulseaudio.
If I fork pulseaudio and change the name, and this fork allows firefox to work, is "firefox requires pulseaudio" now doubly untrue?
Besides, apulse isn't available in the stable repos anyway.
I have no idea what you are on about. Are you one of those crazy "split every hair at a subatomic level" people?Head_on_a_Stick wrote:I'm guessing that you are one of those crazy "tentacle" people?
If you are so keen to propose API translation layers as viable workarounds for compile-time dependencies, perhaps you would like to run firefox in wine? After all, by your logic the windows binary doesn't *require* windows, and wine is just an interface to linux system calls...
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
Pistols at 10 paces!
I can see both your points. PA has a couple of useful features. Before I actually had to edit some text in a couple of config files but usually ended up with reliable audio either way.
I can see both your points. PA has a couple of useful features. Before I actually had to edit some text in a couple of config files but usually ended up with reliable audio either way.
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
I am feeling a mite argumentative at the moment.sunrat wrote:Pistols at 10 paces!
Defense of "You now need this new invasive software to run something you always used without it, because we chose to compile it that way" with "Just install this other piece of software you never needed before, and jump through this here hoop" kinda rubs me the wrong way though, particularly when the real answer is "Pass this flag to configure, and continue as before".
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
You may benefit from looking up the meaning of FUD. For sake of truth, I never said there is hard requirement for PA in Firefox. I merely stated Debian version of Firefox is compiled with PA as a dependency. If you deceive FF with apulse it does not mean the PA dependency is gone.Head_on_a_Stick wrote:To repeat: I *do not* have PulseAudio installed in any of my GNU/Linux systems and firefox (both Quantum and ESR) works just fine in all my various boxen.Segfault wrote:OK, you are using apulse instead of PA. It is still a dependency.
There is *no* hard requirement for PA in firefox, please stop spreading FUD
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
I'm pretty sure both of you are right, just for different reasons. It sounds like HoaS is just affirming that Debian's FF doesn't requrie PA proper; apulse, which a PA emulator, is not PA proper, so you can't really call PA a hard dependency. On the other hand, it's fair to note the direction of Debian's FF towards the PA infrastructure, in no small part to GNOME being the official Debian desktop.Segfault wrote:If you deceive FF with apulse it does not mean the PA dependency is gone.
Looking at the package pages for firefox/firefox-esr, all the way up to sid, I don't see pulseaudio in the dependency lists, so I'm wondering where this "pulseaudio dependency" issue is coming from...
https://packages.debian.org/sid/firefox
https://packages.debian.org/sid/firefox-esr
https://packages.debian.org/buster/firefox-esr
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/firefox-esr
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
^ Yes, thank you, that was my point exactly.n_hologram wrote:HoaS is just affirming that Debian's FF doesn't requrie PA
Hypothetical scenario: systemd is not being used as PID1 but libsystemd0 is installed; are yousteve_v wrote:I have no idea what you are on about.
a) outraged
b) happy
c) indifferent
If the answer is (a) then you are a crazy tentacle person and are henceforth required to state this in your signature to avoid further confusion
deadbang
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
Gentlemen please...
Can we agree to disagree?
I think steve_v prefers not to rely on anything PA related (be it the software or the API). I can understand that.
So pulseaudio brings an easy interface if you have several sound card. So does jack? And sndio?
ALSA was good enough for most users (having a single sound card), shouldn't we keep pulseaudio (as a daemon, as an API and a dependenciy) optionnal then?
if I understand correctly, FF requires Pulseaudio API to play sound. One can provide this API by installing PA himself, or using apulse instead.
FF can be compiled with ALSA support.
Can we agree to disagree?
I think steve_v prefers not to rely on anything PA related (be it the software or the API). I can understand that.
So pulseaudio brings an easy interface if you have several sound card. So does jack? And sndio?
ALSA was good enough for most users (having a single sound card), shouldn't we keep pulseaudio (as a daemon, as an API and a dependenciy) optionnal then?
if I understand correctly, FF requires Pulseaudio API to play sound. One can provide this API by installing PA himself, or using apulse instead.
FF can be compiled with ALSA support.
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
No. That is not the "Debian [users'] Way"Funkygoby wrote:Gentlemen please...
Can we agree to disagree?
I have a slice of cheese between two slices of buttered bread that need toasting. I need a heat source to toast it. The most logical route is using electricity, or compiling a firepit.
It would be easiest, if not expected, to use my "George Foreman Classic Plate 9-Serving Grill & Panini Press," which is designed to provide an easy interface for grilling -- in this case, grilling my cheese sandwich.
Alternatively, I could use my stove and cast-iron pan, to emulate the effects of my George Foreman press' toasting outcome, but bypassing the press completely. The interface wouldn't be as quite as direct, so it would take a little bit of tweaking to set it up; however, it would accomplish the task using a utility that can also be used for cooking other things. In short, I don't have hard dependency on a George Foreman Classic Plate 9-Serving Grill & Panini Press in order to make a grilled cheese, but maybe I'll use the stove, which uses the underlying heating concepts -- the underlying framework, by the way, which led to the invention of the press in the first place.
On the other hand, my grilled cheese is appliance-agnostic, so I could toast it in any number of ways -- I could pull a livewire into a pot of grease to make a self-contained grease fire, set atop the pan, and cook to crisp perfection. And I don't even have any strict dependency on electricity-based solutions. I could also set up a nice bonfire in the backyard. It would take a lot of time and effort, and may not be worth it. Still, compiling the mechanism from the ground-up an option.
Hopefully the analogies are clear.
Is anyone else hungry?
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
I never heard of the other projects ESD or aRts but I guess the point of pulseaudio is to go forward to what will theoretically be universal, instead of back to what works on linux.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PulseAudio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PulseAudio
I think it's more than just different hardware devices, it's different sources/outputs of all kinds. Not something I need, but I guess it could be useful if it could be configured easier. The keyword you used was "easy" which it is not.Funkygoby wrote: So pulseaudio brings an easy interface if you have several sound card. So does jack? And sndio?
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
Code: Select all
debian ~ # dpkg -l | grep apulse
debian ~ # dpkg -l | grep pulse
ii gir1.2-cvc-1.0 3.6.2-2 amd64 Introspection data for Cinnamon pulseaudio abstraction
ii libcvc0:amd64 3.6.2-2 amd64 Cinnamon pulseaudio abstraction library
ii libpulse-mainloop-glib0:amd64 11.1-5 amd64 PulseAudio client libraries (glib support)
ii libpulse0:amd64 11.1-5 amd64 PulseAudio client libraries
rc pulseaudio 11.1-5 amd64 PulseAudio sound server
debian ~ # dpkg -l | grep firefox
ii firefox-esr 52.7.3esr-1 amd64 Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support Release (ESR)
i am able to play audio in youtube on esr
edit - played an embedded twitter video as well
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Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
None of the above: "Mildly irritated that my system is needlessly linked against a library I don't use".Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Hypothetical scenario: systemd is not being used as PID1 but libsystemd0 is installed; are you
a) outraged
b) happy
c) indifferent
Unless of course any of the things needlessly linked against libsystemd0 happen to not work properly if systemd isn't PID1 or systemd services I didn't explicitly enable aren't running.. in which case I'm "looking for another distro".
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
Re: What is the point of PulseAudio?
@n_hologram I am not sure I get the analogy, let me try:
Your cheese is Firefox, your Foreman grill is PA+ALSA, your stove+cast iron is ALSA?
- So Pulseaudio is "supposed" to provide an "easy interface". Well it didn't since I had to tweak it so that it would actually work with my volumes buttons and also, stop blasting my ears.
Your new Foreman grill doesn't grill my cheese and can explode unless I tweak it. Let's say that it is because I used italian cheese.
- Firefox is "appliance agnostic". Today, your are right. I am using FF on OpenBSD with only sndio as my audio server. Someone has to do the work though (mozilla or an OpenBSD dev, I don't know).
But your Foreman grill is meant to unify the grilling process and as a consequence more and more cheese are going to need your grill to even be consumable. They will burn if cooked with anything else than your grill.
As a bonus your Foreman grill takes longer to cook than everyone's grandma stove.
I would like to hear use cases where Pulseaudio is bringing progress over ALSA/OSS (+jack/sndio). By progress I mean, solving problems that were unsolved without bringing new ones.
In the past, I have been to quick to misjudge and dismiss software that later, proved to be the best tools for my use case (Xfce4, OpenBSD). Before completely trashing pulseaudio, I prefer to hear other's opinions.
Your cheese is Firefox, your Foreman grill is PA+ALSA, your stove+cast iron is ALSA?
- So Pulseaudio is "supposed" to provide an "easy interface". Well it didn't since I had to tweak it so that it would actually work with my volumes buttons and also, stop blasting my ears.
Your new Foreman grill doesn't grill my cheese and can explode unless I tweak it. Let's say that it is because I used italian cheese.
- Firefox is "appliance agnostic". Today, your are right. I am using FF on OpenBSD with only sndio as my audio server. Someone has to do the work though (mozilla or an OpenBSD dev, I don't know).
But your Foreman grill is meant to unify the grilling process and as a consequence more and more cheese are going to need your grill to even be consumable. They will burn if cooked with anything else than your grill.
As a bonus your Foreman grill takes longer to cook than everyone's grandma stove.
I would like to hear use cases where Pulseaudio is bringing progress over ALSA/OSS (+jack/sndio). By progress I mean, solving problems that were unsolved without bringing new ones.
In the past, I have been to quick to misjudge and dismiss software that later, proved to be the best tools for my use case (Xfce4, OpenBSD). Before completely trashing pulseaudio, I prefer to hear other's opinions.
Eating raw pasta like a madman waiting for the water to boiln_hologram wrote: Is anyone else hungry?