Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

[SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

Ask for help with issues regarding the Installations of the Debian O/S.
Message
Author
dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

[SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#1 Post by dcihon »

Ok so what do I mean by this question.
I will probably get a lot of flack on this one.
Here goes.
So coming from a Windows world where when you buy a computer Windows is already installed on it and the user rarely every has to install his operating system and wouldn't know how to if he had to.
This is your basic user knowledge (not knowing how to install an operating system)
Windows users new to Linux specifically Debian (I think) need an easier install process.
So what would I propose?
Answer some basic questions ( IE Use entire disk, set up to be used along other OS on system etc)
By the way I haven't thought of all the possibilities here.
Some other Linux versions built on top of Debian make this process a little easier (Ubuntu , Linux Mint etc)
Why would it be so bad for base Debian to offer such an option.
It might get people to use it more is my thought process.
You could warn the user about non-proprietary packages.
I know I have made similar posts like this one before. But I like to discuss this subject.
I am always being asked by people that have old computers laying around that still have XP on them if there is a way to get use out of their old pc.
I try to point them to linux but Debian would not be my first choice to these people since right out the box they are likely to give up because it is so difficult for them to install.
Ok that is it.
Comments appreciated.
Last edited by dcihon on 2018-04-22 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#2 Post by 4D696B65 »

“My God, even a chicken can install Debian, when you put enough grain on the any-key.”
~ Chicken Boo on Debian

http://mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Debian

User avatar
bw123
Posts: 4015
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#3 Post by bw123 »

Because that would suck.
resigned by AI ChatGPT

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#4 Post by Wheelerof4te »

dcihon wrote:Why would it be so bad for base Debian to offer such an option.
It might get people to use it more is my thought process.
You could warn the user about non-proprietary packages.
I know I have made similar posts like this one before. But I like to discuss this subject.
Everyone can install Debian literally by pressing "Enter" key enough times. Of course, you need to read when prompted for password, or God-forbid, choices of DE. But then again, not everyone can read. Or can they?

jibberjabber
Posts: 162
Joined: 2016-01-10 16:58

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#5 Post by jibberjabber »

Have you ever actually tried installing Windows, on a PC, ?
It is not exactly easy, that is why they pre-install it. And if you want Sound,Graphics, etc, the drivers don't just come with the basic windows install disk, you have to find them and install them. Usually they are not for free.
If, for what ever reason you do not want to, or can not take the time to learn how to install a OS, there are technicians, and repair shops all over the world where you can take the PC to them and they will install any OS you desire for you.
Debian as well has thought about this:
https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed
By the way I haven't thought of all the possibilities here.
And you have not done any research on this either. Why is there so many windows lovers on this forum anyway ? all ways telling us how they need to make Debian more like windows, but any way, the direction Debian is headed
it is getting to be more and more suited to MS Windows lovers, and less and less suited for those that prefer installing a OS , they way they want it, and not the way some one else decides it should be.
===== edit ========
Wheeler>>Of course, you need to read
Most windows users do not know how to do that, appears that way any way.
I like this one:
from: http://mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Debian “If you can't use GNU/Debian GNU/Linux, you shouldn't be using GNU/Linux at GNU/all.”
~ RMS on Debian's ease of use.
written by HelpBot#8453
Alias jibberjabber
I am sorry, my english is not that good, and I sometimes have other problems,so my response might not be perfect.
N5RLX > "Jibber jabber ,all day and all night, jibber jabber jibber jabber"

Wheelerof4te
Posts: 1454
Joined: 2015-08-30 20:14

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#6 Post by Wheelerof4te »

jibberjabber wrote:it is getting to be more and more suited to MS Windows lovers, and less and less suited for those that prefer installing a OS , they way they want it, and not the way some one else decides it should be.
I don't agree. You still have a choice of installing only CLI environment from where you can add anything you need. Wanna run i3-gaps or awesome wm? Sure, you can. Those who know how to customize their OS will opt for that.
Why then shouldn't new users have an easier time just installing the OS with everything setup OOTB? What's the point of making the install process harder for them? If they want to learn, they will on their own terms and when they are ready.

jibberjabber
Posts: 162
Joined: 2016-01-10 16:58

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#7 Post by jibberjabber »

==== edited, for posted while writing===
I don't agree.
No problem, nobody has to agree on anything.

I have been doing some experimenting with QEMU, for VM , and FreeDos, was easy to install, Debian 7 , was easy to install, Minix 3 was easy to install, then Debian 9 was pretty easy, the one the was the most difficult, ... 3 guesses:
===============
Image
============================
Image
===========================
Image
======
I am working on this for my nephew, he needs to have some windows programs running for his school work, .. We tried installing windows 7 on the laptop, but no sound, and other things, no drivers,.... so installed OpenBsd,
it "just worked", including sound, graphics and all,... so any way the plan is to use QEMU, and set up a VM for windows 7 (that is required for his school), I am waiting on a friend, that does repairs, and has experience with windows 7, also has the drivers ,etc needed, when he make a install DVD for me, I can use it to create my image for the VM, ..... Linux and the BSD,s are easy to install, on hardware or VM, but that god awfull malware created by micro soft, called windows, is a royal pain.
=====
written by HelpBot#8453
Alias jibberjabber
I am sorry, my english is not that good, and I sometimes have other problems,so my response might not be perfect.
N5RLX > "Jibber jabber ,all day and all night, jibber jabber jibber jabber"

User avatar
bw123
Posts: 4015
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#8 Post by bw123 »

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=is+debia ... to+install

first hit

https://www.datamation.com/open-source/ ... stall.html
...the default Debian Installer is a dancing and singing purple plush toy next to a live velociraptor.

...Mention that you have installed it multiple times, and people are apt to look at you as if you are some kind of stone-cold geek.
That's pretty funny, eh?
resigned by AI ChatGPT

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#9 Post by 4D696B65 »

From 13 years ago
As the first Debian release to use the new installer, version 3.1, a.k.a. Sarge, goes a long way to detonating the myth that Debian is hard to install.
https://www.linux.com/news/review-debian-31

dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#10 Post by dcihon »

Ok guys,
Points taken.
I knew I would regret bringing this up and getting slammed for it.
I was hoping to generate some constructive dialog between all of us but I will save that for another topic.
I throw up the white flag. I surrender.
All of your points are correct.
I guess all OS's have their difficulties for the casual user that hardly ever has to install an OS.
But overall with a little reading and some trial and error everyone can be a OS installer expert.
I will call this discussion solved.
Thanks

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#11 Post by stevepusser »

Debian does have the Calamares installer upstream...we were looking at it as one possibilty for MX Linux, but it requires KDE 5 runtime libraries, for some reason.

BTW, how close does the MX installer come to your ideal?
MX Linux packager and developer

dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#12 Post by dcihon »

I will try it and let you know.

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#13 Post by stevepusser »

dcihon wrote:I will try it and let you know.
I'm pretty sure there's some Youtube videos that demo it if you don't want to download the ISO, too.
MX Linux packager and developer

dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#14 Post by dcihon »

No I have been seeing all of your posts and looks like MX is appealing to me to check out.
It's been on my list of things to do.
I will be installing it in a Virtualbox.

dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#15 Post by dcihon »

Just installed MX.
Yes the install process is about the easiest I have seen.
Debian has to be a little more involved due to picking a DE or WM.
You have also like other distros included some packages to help the user get installed.
Debian is pretty raw at its core and designed to be that way.
I wonder if they could put an installer together that automates some of the process like finding your network cards and installing the proper drivers for them (wired and wireless). If it could detect other hardware you have like video card , printers and install drivers for them.
I guess that would take more of a staff that they don't have.
It sure would get people up and running faster I would think.
How many forum threads are related to getting those packages installed.
I mean if MX can do it and Mint and Ubuntu to name a few can do it you would think Debian could do it.
Oh well here I go again. I know I said this is solved so I will quit.

User avatar
4D696B65
Site admin
Site admin
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2009-06-28 06:09
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#16 Post by 4D696B65 »

dcihon wrote:Just installed MX.
Yes the install process is about the easiest I have seen.
Debian has to be a little more involved due to picking a DE or WM.
You have also like other distros included some packages to help the user get installed.
Debian is pretty raw at its core and designed to be that way.
I wonder if they could put an installer together that automates some of the process like finding your network cards and installing the proper drivers for them (wired and wireless). If it could detect other hardware you have like video card , printers and install drivers for them.
I guess that would take more of a staff that they don't have.
It sure would get people up and running faster I would think.
How many forum threads are related to getting those packages installed.
I mean if MX can do it and Mint and Ubuntu to name a few can do it you would think Debian could do it.
Oh well here I go again. I know I said this is solved so I will quit.
You have been here 4 years and still don't know that debian respects gnu while other distros don't care?

dcihon
Posts: 279
Joined: 2012-09-23 16:18
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#17 Post by dcihon »

Well I haven't read up on all the gnu documentation.
I apologize that I am one of those people that just jump into something without reading all the manuals.
I go read manuals and docs after I can't figure out a problem or after asking for help.

Guess I have been here longer than I thought:

Code: Select all

User statistics

Joined:
    2012-09-23 10:18
Last visited:
    2018-04-23 04:26
Total posts:
    195 | Search user’s posts
    (0.03% of all posts / 0.10 posts per day) 
Most active forum:
    Hardware
    (41 Posts / 21.03% of your posts)
Most active topic:
    Trouble seeing iphone7 on my debian install
    (18 Posts / 9.23% of your posts)

Well I guess I haven't learned much in 5+ years.

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#18 Post by stevepusser »

The MX/antiX installer also has a rather unique feature: changes you make in the Live session can be inherited by your install, except for networking setup. But as I understand, this depends on a unique way the the two distros handle the Live sessions, and is not transferable to vanilla Debian, for example.

Edit: and the MX and antiX developers have rewritten and renamed the application as "gazelle-installer"; they are getting translations for the localization strings now at Transifex.

I admit we'll probably be tortured as sinners forever by RMSatan and Freelzelbub in FSF Hell, along with the Mint developers. :mrgreen:
Last edited by stevepusser on 2018-04-23 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
MX Linux packager and developer

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 132 times

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#19 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

dcihon wrote:Well I haven't read up on all the gnu documentation.
I apologize that I am one of those people that just jump into something without reading all the manuals.
I go read manuals and docs after I can't figure out a problem or after asking for help.
It's not about documentation, it's about politics :)

Debian has principles[1] and these are considered far more important than pandering to clueless n00bs :mrgreen:

[1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract
deadbang

User avatar
pylkko
Posts: 1802
Joined: 2014-11-06 19:02

Re: [SOLVED] Has Debian ever considered and easier install

#20 Post by pylkko »

To original poster, because you said "any comments accepted".

If you go to https://www.debian.org/ you will see the motto "Debian, the universal operating system". This can be seen as saying that Debian strives to be an operating system that can be used broadly for many different purposes on many different computer systems. And indeed, Debian supports more different processor architectures than most other Linux distributions, it has one of the largest, if not the largest package collection and is used to control everything from arm dev boards to embedded devices, from laptops to high traffic web servers (for example Google uses Debian). Heck, one day I was going to work with a train and the screen displaying the train time table was booting...booting Debian. Perhaps one of the downsides of being a general purpose operating system is that then you do not have time to make installing software as specifically designed for home computer users as, say, Mint Linux does (not only is it a time/resource problem, but sometimes what some users need is what others don't want). Although, installing Debian has steadily become more and more approachable to lay users. I personally think that it is in quite good condition with respect to this now. But anyway, that is one thing to keep in mind, that distributions like Mint cater to a much narrower audience and they can therefore probably take more time and resources towards making everything work for that specific narrow use case. Debian has never wanted nor does it need thousands of ex-windows users.

Post Reply