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How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

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johnywhy
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How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#1 Post by johnywhy »

hi all

How to install grub2 from a Debian-based distro, over an existing grub installation that was installed by a different OS? Pardon my ignorance.

I have a working grub2, installed from Mint. Works no problem. Includes auto-detected Windows 10, which has hibernation disabled to prevent issues. I manually added my Debian-based OS and Puppy linux to Mint's /etc/grub.d/40_custom file. Everything boots fine.

Mint and Windows are full-partition installs. Debian is a frugal install, inside a folder on the Win 10 partition.

Now i want Debian to take over the grub, so i can uninstall and completely remove Mint.

Having some issues with installing grub with Debian. At Debian CLI:

Code: Select all

# grub-install /dev/sda
Installing for i386-pc platform.
grub-install: error: failed to get canonical path of `aufs'.
Some articles advise me to do boot repair, but i doubt that's necessary, since i can boot just fine into all OS's. The existing boot isn't broken.
https://askubuntu.com/a/921970

Any suggestions? i have researched, but no luck.

thx

p.H
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#2 Post by p.H »

It seems that your "frugal install" uses aufs (union mount). This is not supported by GRUB.
Can you post the contents of Mint's 40_custom file and the output of

Code: Select all

df -hT
from Debian ?

johnywhy
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#3 Post by johnywhy »

hi p.H

Mint's /etc/grub.d/40_custom:

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#!/bin/sh
exec tail -n +3 $0

# DebianDog Stretch
menuentry "MyStretchNetinst1" {
    search -f /MyStretchNetinst1/live/vmlinuz1 --set=root 
    linux /MyStretchNetinst1/live/vmlinuz1 from=/MyStretchNetinst1 noauto changes=EXIT:/MyStretchNetinst1/live/changes.dat 
    initrd /MyStretchNetinst1/live/initrd1.xz}

# Porteus-32
     set p32fldr=/porteus32
     set p32iso=$p32fldr/Porteus-XFCE-v4.0-i586.iso
     set p32mods="extramod="
menuentry "Porteus 4.0-32 ISO"   {
     set boot_parms="volume=33 reboot=cold $p32mods$p32fldr/modules copy2ram changes=EXIT:$p32fldr/porteussave.dat"
     search -f $p32iso --set=root
     loopback loop $p32iso
     linux  (loop)/boot/syslinux/vmlinuz from=$p32iso $boot_parms
     initrd (loop)/boot/syslinux/initrd.xz
     }

# Puppy Linux
menuentry "xtahr" {
    set root='(hd0,1)'
    linux /puppyxtahr/vmlinuz pmedia=atahd psubdir=puppyxtahr
    initrd /puppyxtahr/initrd.gz
    }

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# df -hT
Filesystem     Type      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
tmpfs          tmpfs    1006M  2.0M 1004M   1% /mnt/live
devtmpfs       devtmpfs   10M     0   10M   0% /dev
/dev/sda1      fuseblk    39G   18G   21G  47% /mnt/live/mnt/sda1
tmpfs          tmpfs     1.2G  8.6M  1.2G   1% /mnt/live/memory/changes
aufs           aufs      1.2G  8.6M  1.2G   1% /
/dev/loop0     squashfs  162M  162M     0 100% /mnt/live/memory/images/01-filesystem.squashfs
/dev/loop1     squashfs  2.2M  2.2M     0 100% /mnt/live/memory/images/zz_xfce_config.squashfs
/dev/loop2     ext4      1.5G  588M  767M  44% /mnt/loop2
tmpfs          tmpfs     202M  660K  201M   1% /run
tmpfs          tmpfs     5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock
tmpfs          tmpfs     403M   28M  375M   7% /run/shm
cgroup         tmpfs      12K     0   12K   0% /sys/fs/cgroup
tmpfs          tmpfs     202M     0  202M   0% /run/user/0
THX

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#4 Post by kedaha »

Hi there,
As far as I know Debian "stretch" doesn't include aufs. Looks like a non-official version of Debian to me. What is DebianDog Stretch anyway?
Might it not be a topic for another forum?
In my opinion, you'd really do yourself a favour by choosing to use just one Linux distribution, for example Debian stable as recommended, rather than several.
DebianStable

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$ vrms

No non-free or contrib packages installed on debian!  rms would be proud.

p.H
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#5 Post by p.H »

It looks like this "frugal install" is a kind of live system with persistence rather than a real installation.
IMO, it is a bad idea to bind the main boot loader to this kind of setup. But if this is what you want...

I guess you could install GRUB in the NTFS partition /dev/sda1, which is mounted on /mnt/live/mnt/sda1 according to df, with this command :

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grub-install --boot-directory=/mnt/live/mnt/sda1 /dev/sda
If it succeeds, it will create a /grub directory at the root of the NTFS filesystem, visible as /mnt/live/mnt/sda1/grub. Then you have to put a proper config file grub.cfg in this directory. I doubt update-grub will work properly on this kind of setup.

johnywhy
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#6 Post by johnywhy »

many thx for the recipe, p.H!

i won't try it yet, due to your caution.
i'll also check with the folks over at murga-linux.com/puppy. They have a lot of experience with frugals.

Question: would this arrangement be easier/safer with legacy-grub/grub4dos?

THX

p.H
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#7 Post by p.H »

I doubt that grub-legacy can be installed - at least safely - on NTFS.
Why do you want to control grub from the frugal install ?

johnywhy
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#8 Post by johnywhy »

Stretch DebianDog will be my main OS. i'm getting rid of Mint, which current controls grub.

It doesn't have to be installed abnormally. That is, i'd like a folder-based install, but it doesn't have to be this way.

THX

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debiman
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#9 Post by debiman »

distros with "dog" in their name are usually just puppies :D
in any case, that is not debian.
i don't mind personally, but it is something you need to specify in your opening post.
same in your other thread i guess?

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#10 Post by Prax »

I like debiandog! there's nothing wrong with it.

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#11 Post by p.H »

johnywhy wrote:Stretch DebianDog will be my main OS. (...)
It doesn't have to be installed abnormally. That is, i'd like a folder-based install, but it doesn't have to be this way.
It doesn't have to, but it is at the moment. Really, installing your main OS in an NTFS partition subdirectory does not look like a good idea to me.
johnywhy wrote:i'm getting rid of Mint, which current controls grub.
What do you mean by "getting rid" ? What is going to replace it on disk ?
Did you consider to install DebianDog "normally" instead of Mint ?

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#12 Post by johnywhy »

Thx all, for helping me figure out my disk setup. Thx for helping me understand the aufs problem.

In my OP, I didn't say "it's Debian" . I said "Debian-based". Of the major Linux families, Debian, Arch, Fedora, Slack, and Gentoo, DebianDog is Debian-based. In your replies, I think you can just think of them as Debians.

By "remove Mint" I mean reformat its partition.

I'm doing myself a favor and comparing several distros. Your replies lead me to some conclusions:

- I should put all Linuxes in an ext4 partition, not in the Windows NTFS partition.

- I need to pick one OS as the long-term master OS for that partition (Mint wasn't it). For now, puppy xtahr (another Debian-based distro) is the only one I know is going to styay with me, so I'll make that the master.

Hopefully I can host multiple folder-based Linuxes in that partition for evaluation.

Ideally, every Linux in that partition would be able to manage that partition's grub, but sounds like not possible.

THX

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#13 Post by Dai_trying »

I would create a seperate partition for each OS you want to install, and each time you install another Os I allow it to install it's own grub and then boot into the OS that you consider to be the "master" and re-install grub from there, this would allow you to simply re-install (and update) grub from whichever OS you want to be in control of it.

Below is the output of fdisk -l for this machine, as you will see there are several partitions and some are used for OS installation and others for data.

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Device     Boot      Start        End    Sectors   Size Id Type
/dev/sda1  *          2048  209717247  209715200   100G 83 Linux
/dev/sda2        209717248  968384511  758667264 361.8G 83 Linux
/dev/sda3        968384512  976773119    8388608     4G 82 Linux swap / Solaris
/dev/sda4        976773120 3907028991 2930255872   1.4T  5 Extended
/dev/sda5       1186492416 2235068415 1048576000   500G 83 Linux
/dev/sda6        976775168 1186490367  209715200   100G 83 Linux
/dev/sda7       2235070464 3283646463 1048576000   500G 83 Linux
/dev/sda8       3283648512 3488448511  204800000  97.7G 83 Linux
/dev/sda9       3488450560 3693250559  204800000  97.7G 83 Linux
/dev/sda10      3693252608 3907028991  213776384   102G 83 Linux
One thing to always remember is to make sure to have grub installed from the correct OS before removing another, and then run grub update after removing it to keep the grub options up to date. If you accidentally remove the OS that currently controls grub you can easily chroot into the desired OS and re-install grub using a live-cd, this happens sometimes with this sort of set-up.

Another thing to note is this is a BIOS machine and my UEFI setup is a little different as I keep each OS with it's own UEFI boot entry so they all have their own grub which means I can remove any of them without affecting the other distro's at all, I press F12 to get the boot menu at startup if I want to select anything other than the "master" OS. The partitioning is similar though with the exception of having Windows 10 installed (with it's extra partitions!) and a UEFI boot partition and obviously it does not need the extended partition.

johnywhy
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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#14 Post by johnywhy »

thx for your outstanding answer, dai_trying.
Dai_trying wrote:I would create a seperate partition for each OS you want to install
i'll consider this approach. My goal is to make an OS for a resource-limited machine. Might be trickly, as my HD isn't very big, and i want to have flexibility. Your approach means i'm stuck with a fixed number of OS's, and if i have fewer OS's, then i'm wasting my limited space with unused partitions.

i can't tell if my machine is EFI, cuz windows says i'm booting with "legacy". If i go into BIOS, i don't even see EFI anyplace, i only see "Legacy USB Booting: enabled/disabled". If i disable it, then i lose keyboard control of Mint's grub menu. weird!

do you think the folder-based installs is risky, not possible with certain OS's, or you just don't like it?

THX

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#15 Post by GarryRicketson »

In your replies, I think you can just think of them as Debians
No, there is only 1 Linux distro that is Debian. There are many Linux distros,
most of us do not think of them as Debians,... Debian is Debian. Linux Mint is a
different Linux disribution, (distro), all the other distros are like wise different distributions, all though some claim to be based on Debian, they are no longer Debian, they have been modified and changed so much, Debian.org does not support them, nor is responsible for the packages for them, this is why the other distros all have their own repositories.
if i have fewer OS's, then i'm wasting my limited space with unused partitions.
This is not realistic. You can all ways delete/remove any partitions you do not need, and use the space to increase the sizes of the partitions you do use.
do you think the folder-based installs is risky, not possible with certain OS's
I have never heard of "folder installs", and I have never heard of puppy xtahr, or Stretch DebianDog , this entire topic is not about debian, but it is about grub, and various linux distros.
For now, puppy xtahr (another Debian-based distro) is the only one I know is going to styay with me, so I'll make that the master.
How to install grub2 from a Debian-based distro, over an existing grub installation that was installed by a different OS? Pardon my ignorance.
Questions about properly installing Grub2 or Grub, to other distros, probably would get more accurate answers if the question is asked on a support site for that particular distro. Also it should be noted, grub is not the only boot loader available, lilo might be a better option.
For example, if you were using Debian, but you are not, obviously this would be the correct forum to ask about how to install grub to Debian.
When you install Debian, the installer installs Grub2, and updates it, assuming you did the install correctly, and everything went well, the grub version that Debian installs, will be what is booted and it will have a menu where you can select any of the bootable partitions, regardless as to what distro they are.
Some of what is said in the OP , confuses me :
Debian is a frugal install, inside a folder on the Win 10 partition.
Are you really using Debian or not ? please be honest, and I don't mean some distro based on Debian, I mean Debian. I do not know anything about windows 10, nor have any interest, but I don't think Debian can run from some folder on a Windows system. I know Debian, Linux, and Ms Windows are kind of merging and getting more and more similar, but I don't think it has gotten that far, Debian is a OS, not some program, that comes as a windows .exe file, and you put it in a folder, expecting it to run.
==============
- I need to pick one OS as the long-term master OS for that partition (Mint wasn't it). For now, puppy xtahr (another Debian-based distro) is the only one I know is going to styay with me, so I'll make that the master.

Hopefully I can host multiple folder-based Linuxes in that partition for evaluation.
Ok, and I am sorry to be so long winded, there just seems to be so many questions in my mind, and this topic seems to have a lot of various distros, etc,... any way, finally, this will wrap up what I have to say :
I only have 1 partition, and 1 OS, that is "master", if you want to call it that,..
I use the term "host",... the 1 OS is host, and controls all of the others, I do experiment with many, Linux (various), BSD's, Minix, even a old Windows XP, and also FreeDos. So called "multi boot", and various partitions, Grub, etc, is a ROYAL pain, and headache, and yes after all said and done, it is limited to 4 or 5, bootable partitions, I forget exactly on that. There are ways to have more, but it really gets complicated, and messy.
Anyway, it sounds to me like you should really look at using a VM system, I like QEMU, but there is also, VirtualBox, and many others, maybe that is what you mean by " folder-based Linuxes ", ? Are these just virtual images, in folders, ? In a way that is what I do as well, I have each OS I am testing and working with in a Directory, which contains the image, and everything needed to start the VM,... My ram is rather limited, so that does limit how many VM's I can have running at the same time, but it does not limit how many VM's I can have, in other words, if need be I can shutdown 1 vm ,say (Debian-2), and then start another, maybe the Minix 3,...etc,...
I have 3 running now, all at the same time,... you can't do that with a multi boot system, But you can with VM's.
============================

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#16 Post by Dai_trying »

johnywhy wrote:My goal is to make an OS for a resource-limited machine. Might be trickly, as my HD isn't very big, and i want to have flexibility. Your approach means i'm stuck with a fixed number of OS's, and if i have fewer OS's, then i'm wasting my limited space with unused partitions.
If you want an OS for a low spec machine there are some out there as you have found (puppy is one set) so "make an OS for a resource-limited machine" would definitely be more work than most people would consider investing.

If you are "stuck with a fixed number of OS's" I would simply choose wisely and test quickly, if OS does not fit your needs move on to the next OS. And Garry has pointed out the merits of using virtualization to test/use other OS's, but if your resources are limited this may not be a viable option. I usually keep a set of virtual machines ready for when I need to do some quick tests and do not want to re-boot into other OS.
johnywhy wrote:i can't tell if my machine is EFI, cuz windows says i'm booting with "legacy". If i go into BIOS, i don't even see EFI anyplace, i only see "Legacy USB Booting: enabled/disabled". If i disable it, then i lose keyboard control of Mint's grub menu. weird!
Your machine is very likely UEFI otherwise "legacy boot" would not be an option. You would need to have your setting decided before installing any OS at all, you cannot (or should I say should not) change this after you have started populating your HDD with OS's, I have Win10 on my laptop and 4 Linux OS's and room to expand, I do not have so much HDD space there and usually give each OS between 5 and 25 Gb depending on the OS requirenments.
My UEFI machine (Dell laptop) is definitely easier (for me) to install/remove different OS's as each retains control of it's own grub with an entry in /boot/efi/EFI/ although some UEFI implementations are not so helpful to other users and they need to do some workarounds to get their desired set-up.
johnywhy wrote:do you think the folder-based installs is risky, not possible with certain OS's, or you just don't like it?

THX
I prefer to keep a little distance betweeen OS's and would not maintain an OS which is installed to the userspace of another OS although i have used wubi installations which have installed to the windows partitions but these were for testing and removed as soon as I was done. I can't really say if there are risks but I guess any files contained within a windows system could be compromised by the OS's poor security (virus/malware) although in most cases I imagine the damage would be limited.

And like Garry also said "There is only 1 Linux distro that is Debian" and I (nearly) always have a stable and testing version installed on my machines for using/testing various things. I also use derivatives like Q4OS (also good for low resource machines) SparkyLinux and others, if full desktop is needed then Xfce/Lxde/LxQt/trinity OS's are what I would usually go for but there are others that are even lower in resource usage but you have to sacrifice ease of use and so I don't usually strip down that far.

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#17 Post by p.H »

johnywhy wrote:
I would create a seperate partition for each OS you want to install
i'll consider this approach. My goal is to make an OS for a resource-limited machine. Might be trickly, as my HD isn't very big, and i want to have flexibility. Your approach means i'm stuck with a fixed number of OS's, and if i have fewer OS's, then i'm wasting my limited space with unused partitions.
Then you may consider using LVM. It allows to easily create, resize and destroy logical volumes. A condition is that any distribution you wish to install must support LVM.

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#18 Post by johnywhy »

Hi Garry
GarryRicketson wrote:there is only 1 Linux distro that is Debian. they have been modified and changed so much,
Again, yes i know they are not Debian. I didn't say they are Debian. I said they are based on Debian, which is correct. They are descended from Debian.
debiman wrote:distros with "dog" in their name are usually just puppies :D
in any case, that is not debian.
DebianDog isn't a puppy. It's a stripped down version of Debian's current release.

Therefor, in terms of troubleshooting and configuring, they may have enough in common with actual Debian, that solutions can be found by looking at how actual Debian does it. i think that may be especially true re booting.
Debian.org does not support them,
Debian.org states "Debian User Forums is a web portal on which you can submit questions about Debian, and have them answered by other users." https://www.debian.org/support . Therefor, what Debian.org officially "supports" isn't relevant here. If you're not personally interested in helping, you're free not to.
nor is responsible for the packages for them
I wasn't asking for package support for other distros, nor support of any kind for other distros. This thread concerns multi-booting.
You can all ways delete/remove any partitions you do not need, and use the space to increase the sizes of the partitions you do use.
For me, that's too time-consuming and too much effort to be practical as frequently as i need (multiple times daily). Also, i feel (maybe incorrectly) that resizing partitions carries a bit more risk of data-loss, or just wear-and-tear on the drive, than just making a new folder. So it's not something i'd want to do every day.
I have never heard of "folder installs".
Aka "frugal" installations. i'm no expert, but there are a couple variations i know of. The OS might boot off an ISO file, or may boot of initrd.gz, vmlinuz, and filesystem.squashfs files placed in a folder. Some setups offer run-in-RAM option, where the entire OS is decompressed and loaded into RAM at boot. The OS may have no persistence (like a live CD), or it may achieve persistence with a "save-file".
I don't think Debian can run from some folder on a Windows system.
These references might help.

"adding a compressed clone of your Debian installation, which is loaded into memory at boot, and then run frugally. This can offer security, and speed advantages."
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums ... tallation/

"copy the /live folder from the CD/ISO to that HDD, install grub4dos and point menu.lst to boot that /live folder's initrd, vmlinuz and filesystem.squashfs. Allocate that partition a label of 'persistence' and you can boot that same set up but with all changes being preserved into the same partition"
https://github.com/souperdoupe/crunkbon ... -only-mode

"A frugal install goes onto an existing partition and can co-exist with other frugal installs, with installed Linux or installed Windows. Advantages of frugal installations:
- Space is saved: installation to hard drive typically is 4 times the size of the ISO, whereas with frugal it is the size of the ISO.
- Frugal from hard drive is faster than from a LiveMedium.
- Great for testing."
https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/frugal-installation

"A Frugal install is where you boot an image off the hard drive, usually via grub or lilo, and load the compressed image. It essentially consists of loading the linux kernel using a boot loader which in turns loads the initial ramdisk (initrd). The initrd then loads the root file system."
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/wiki/frugal_install.html
lilo might be a better option.
Why?
I do not know anything about windows 10, nor have any interest
That's fine, i'm not seeking Windows support. This thread concerns multiple booting Linux.
Grub, etc, is a ROYAL pain, and headache, and yes after all said and done, it is limited to 4 or 5, bootable partitions, I forget exactly on that. There are ways to have more, but it really gets complicated, and messy.
i know what you mean :D
look at using a VM system
Thx for that. Yes, i have used VM's, and they do offer some advantages. But some things behave differently than in a disk installation. Can be a bit RAM-heavy too, since it means running two OS's at the same time. RAM is limited on the machine i'm working with.

cheers!
Last edited by johnywhy on 2018-09-11 04:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#19 Post by johnywhy »

Dai_trying wrote:If you want an OS for a low spec machine there are some out there as you have found (puppy is one set) so "make an OS for a resource-limited machine" would definitely be more work than most people would consider investing.
Yes, some people tell me "pick one OS and stick with it." How boring! :P My current interest is Devuan, a Debian-derivative that runs without systemd. Some folks in puppy community are offering some slimmed-down iso's and build-scripts.
If you are "stuck with a fixed number of OS's" I would simply choose wisely
Image
(caption could also read, "can i try on your hat?")
I have Win10 on my laptop and 4 Linux OS's and room to expand, I do not have so much HDD space there and usually give each OS between 5 and 25 Gb depending on the OS requirenments. My UEFI machine (Dell laptop) is definitely easier (for me) to install/remove different OS's as each retains control of it's own grub with an entry in /boot/efi/EFI/
i'm now resizing partitions. Planning on 1 Win part, and about 4 parts for other OS's. No doubt i will also have some folder-based frugal installs.
although some UEFI implementations are not so helpful to other users and they need to do some workarounds to get their desired set-up.
that's what i'm worried about. Still haven't decided. i'm not worried about boot viruses/root kits. I'm not likely to enlarge the HD on this box, so i don't need large-HD support. But i think UEFI gives access to a bit more RAM, which seems the only advantage in my scenario.
I also use derivatives like Q4OS (also good for low resource machines) SparkyLinux and others, if full desktop is needed then Xfce/Lxde/LxQt/trinity OS's are what I would usually go for.
i'm xfce all the way. My goal is a user-friendly OS i can share with friends for low-resource boxes. Imo, xfce is the most powerful, intuitive lightweight desktop. Don't need eye-candy.
p.H wrote:
johnywhy wrote:you may consider using LVM. It allows to easily create, resize and destroy logical volumes. A condition is that any distribution you wish to install must support LVM.
many thanks for that, p.H. I'm now reading up on LVM's, and planning to experiment :D

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Re: How to take over grub controlled by a different OS?

#20 Post by debiman »

looking up debiandog, i found this:
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/
johnywhy wrote:DebianDog isn't a puppy. It's a stripped down version of Debian's current release.
this is debatable.
quoting from above link:
DebianDog is very small Debian Live CD shaped to look and act like Puppy Linux. Debian structure and Debian behaviour are untouched and Debian documentation is 100% valid for DebianDog.
Therefor, in terms of troubleshooting and configuring, they may have enough in common with actual Debian, that solutions can be found by looking at how actual Debian does it.
this is correct.
in my opinion, you are also allowed to ask these questions here on the forum, as long as you use the correct sub-forum for derivate distros (off-topic), and specify that you are using something else than debian proper.
there's nothing wrong with that, ok? no animosity or sth, just do it properly from now on. please.
Debian.org states "Debian User Forums is a web portal on which you can submit questions about Debian, and have them answered by other users." https://www.debian.org/support . Therefor, what Debian.org officially "supports" isn't relevant here.
why not? it says so very clearly: "questions about Debian", not "questions about Debian derivates"
in any case, the forum has this policy i now mentioned several times, so it really doesn't matter so much what the wiki says.

now you might be wondering why this nitpicking?
two reasons:
1) there's tons of debain derivates. imagine they all were allowed to post questions here, it would explode the forums.
2) there's indeed differences in the structures of the distros themselves, and the term "debian derivate" is very vague, and "100% compatible" is usually simply untrue - this means, we cannot give good advice, or have to play even more guessing games than we already do. if you remember, this has already happened for one of your topics.

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