init diversity in Debian

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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby oswaldkelso » 2019-12-22 19:50

to follow on from here and this thread seems the most encompassing to me
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=144665&start=15#p712687

Everyone needs to take a chill pill step back, look at the history on this board and learn from it. imho those threads should not have been merged and I take some responsibility for not saying so when I thought it. I got sidetracked https://hooktube.com/watch?v=cEqoqIr0DVE and forgot :-)

There are several reasons and the merging of those threads demonstrate them well. Just look at the names of all those ex Debian users that left because of the systemd debacle. People that loved Debian and felt forced out. Feelings were high at the time and the was no chance of reconciliation. Now things have cooled a lot and with the work of some Debian devs and the likes of Devuan that chance of reconciliation could return.

It would be great if Debian took a look at Gentoo & Funtoo and Parabola that are actively working to give their users init choice. Debian could reclaim the title of the universal operating system again.
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2019-12-28 10:13

The GR results are in: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00212.html

tl;dr: proposal B won.

Salient extract:
Packages should include service units or init scripts to start daemons and services. Packages may use any systemd facility at the package maintainer's discretion, provided that this is consistent with other Policy requirements and the normal expectation that packages shouldn't depend on experimental or unsupported (in Debian) features of other packages. Packages may include support for alternate init systems besides systemd and may include alternatives for any systemd-specific interfaces they use. Maintainers use their normal procedures for deciding which patches to include.

So it is now OK for developers to start enabling systemd-specific features that won't work with other init systems.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Lysander » 2019-12-28 13:06

oswaldkelso wrote:Just look at the names of all those ex Debian users that left because of the systemd debacle. People that loved Debian and felt forced out. Feelings were high at the time and the was no chance of reconciliation. Now things have cooled a lot and with the work of some Debian devs and the likes of Devuan that chance of reconciliation could return.


Really I think it's about acceptance. I left Debian because of systemd and wanting to explore other OSs, however, now I'm back with Debian on my main machine. Familiarity is important and I don't want to learn any other OS apart from Debian/Slackware. I have accepted Debian's choice, I don't like it much, but I'm willing to work with it for now.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:The GR results are in: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 ... 00212.html
...
So it is now OK for developers to start enabling systemd-specific features that won't work with other init systems.


Does this not potentially pull the rug out from under Devuan going forward?
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2019-12-28 14:51

Lysander wrote:Does this not potentially pull the rug out from under Devuan going forward?

That depends on how Devuan are faring for resources, they have a thread about the GR on their forums: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3074

And this one's just started: Debian has fallen — pretty clear which way Yeti thinks the wind is blowing...

Discussion over at the MX forums as well: https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=54135
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby golinux » 2019-12-28 17:23

So missing Dasein's wisdom that would have put this into proper perspective.

(golinux sheds a virtual tear . . .)
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby golinux » 2019-12-28 17:34

Lysander wrote:Does this not potentially pull the rug out from under Devuan going forward?
This is useless speculation that will be answered in time. More importantly . . . does this pull the rug out from under GNU Linux and the ideal of Debian as a "universal" operating system as Debian continues to morph into a satellite of the Fedora/Red Hat "systemdOS".
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby pylkko » 2019-12-28 20:05

wait.. so you are saying that "this" (i.e Debian including other init ways, as opposed to only supporting systemd) might undermine the usage of Gnu/Linux and make Debian less of an universal operating system?

Not only that but your willing to entertain this train of thought, while dismissing potential Devuan users' concerns about its possible future as "useless speculation"?

Do you want to elaborate at least a bit on how you think in this manner? I mean just to get even then slightest grasp on what you're about. Don't take this as contesting or belittling you. Genuinely just want to see your point better.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby golinux » 2019-12-28 21:09

pylkko wrote:wait.. so you are saying that "this" (i.e Debian including other init ways, as opposed to only supporting systemd) might undermine the usage of Gnu/Linux and make Debian less of an universal operating system?

exploring alternatives is not a commitment to providing alternatives. It is toothless as possible. It gives a glimmer of hope while the systemd avalanche has a pass to grind on unchecked.

pylkko wrote:Not only that but your willing to entertain this train of thought, while dismissing potential Devuan users' concerns about its possible future as "useless speculation"?
I was trying to bring attention to the bigger picture. Much more than Devuan is at risk.

pylkko wrote:Do you want to elaborate at least a bit on how you think in this manner? I mean just to get even then slightest grasp on what you're about. Don't take this as contesting or belittling you. Genuinely just want to see your point better.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby oswaldkelso » 2019-12-28 22:41

Well there is hope. But the only way I can see Debian being able to continue use the term "The Universal Operating System" is find something of mutual benefit to both it's self and the likes of Devuan. Maybe Devuan installing all non systemd applications form Debian but using guix to add all other applications. Debian stable users could benefit by ditching backports and using guix instead also. They would gain newer packages and the ability to rollback any breakages. Over time who knows what may happen.

I do know I wont use Debian again as my main OS until it becomes more universal again, and wont use Devuan as my main OS until it stops being so dependent on Debian in it's current state. IMO. Debian is a bit lost ATM and the Red-hat tail is currently wagging the Debian dog. It won't be long before the only difference is in the name.

Maybe get it over with quick. Devora :-)
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby oswaldkelso » 2019-12-29 00:13

Lysander wrote:
oswaldkelso wrote:Just look at the names of all those ex Debian users that left because of the systemd debacle. People that loved Debian and felt forced out. Feelings were high at the time and the was no chance of reconciliation. Now things have cooled a lot and with the work of some Debian devs and the likes of Devuan that chance of reconciliation could return.


Really I think it's about acceptance. I left Debian because of systemd and wanting to explore other OSs, however, now I'm back with Debian on my main machine. Familiarity is important and I don't want to learn any other OS apart from Debian/Slackware. I have accepted Debian's choice, I don't like it much, but I'm willing to work with it for now.


Well you may have come back and accepted systemd, but I left and discovered a new world. 12 years of using Debian and never needed to build a package. Both brilliant and a travesty at the same time. I loved Debian and what it stood for that's why i chose it. If it really has given up so be it. But I'll not give up on Debian just yet.

That said I'll also not give up on my dreams and views either. Since I left (believe it or not it was a systemd bug that broke the camels back. A bug I only discovered 6 months after!) I learnt how to build many packages from source (had to). Well over 200. I also discovered the most stable distro that passed my expectations and made me revaluate my ideas of what stability and speed really is. I'm actually really sad that today I'm actually in the process of replacing it as it's to old and unsupported and I don't have the skills to up-grade the whole system. I really wish I could help push the next version. The fact is I don't have the skills and will have to find a new home in the meantime while I wait.

In short I've discovered source based distros and no longer fear them. In fact I've learnt to embrace them. There is life after systemd and while it may not be where it's expected, it is out there. :twisted:
Ash init durbatulûk, ash init gimbatul,
Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Lysander » 2019-12-29 09:17

golinux wrote:This is useless speculation that will be answered in time. More importantly . . . does this pull the rug out from under GNU Linux and the ideal of Debian as a "universal" operating system as Debian continues to morph into a satellite of the Fedora/Red Hat "systemdOS".


This is the last post I will make on the subject [unless future responses are fair and respectful], but your reply is unnecessarily and worryingly defensive. What we are seeing here is the potential start of something that could jeopardise the entirety of the Devuan project. That is a very realistic outcome, not just a mild possibility. Ideally the Devuan devs should be getting together and asking themselves questions such as, "given the historical behaviour of the Debian project in recent years and their stances on the importance of systemd, where do we think this could this go? In what way could this pose a risk to or endanger Devuan? What steps can we take now to mitigate this risk?" I'm sure I need not remind you that the one and only reason the Devuan project was founded was as a systemd-less version of Debian and now, as HoaS has pointed out, they will commence enabling systemd-specific features. I do not think it's unrealistic to say this could go from 'features' to 'packages' and gratuitous init coupling.

Devuan is not a project I am involved in as a dev or a user but I appreciate what it is trying to do. I hope you look at this situation fairly and realistically but also put things in place to plan for the future. I wish you all the best with your project.

oswaldkelso wrote:There is life after systemd and while it may not be where it's expected, it is out there. :twisted:


Indeed, I am well aware of it. Out of interest, what is the distro to which you refer [the one that you discovered]?
Last edited by Lysander on 2019-12-29 11:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2019-12-29 10:25

This decision will mean little for the vast majority of desktop users.

As for Devuan, maybe they could switch to Slackware base and help Pat push out the long awaited 15 release?
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby fsmithred » 2019-12-29 11:52

Another possibility is that the group of Debian and Devuan developers who are working together on things like sysvinit, openrc and elogind will continue to work together and get things done.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Lysander » 2019-12-29 12:37

Wheelerof4te wrote:This decision will mean little for the vast majority of desktop users.

As for Devuan, maybe they could switch to Slackware base and help Pat push out the long awaited 15 release?


If Devuan were to move to, e.g. Slackware they would lose APT and end up migrating to an OS which a lot of their user base may find too difficult to continue using. Additionally, Slackware appears to be having its own issues with 14.2 being rather stale now with no sign of a 15.0 beta on the horizon. Pat has given no indications on the reasons for the long wait between 14.2 [now 3.5 years old] and 15.0 but there is no doubt that there are big issues in the Linux ecosystem which this very topic is pertinently addressing. PV takes Slackware very seriously and keeps his cards close to his chest. It is a highly personal project for him and it is doubtful whether he would let a bunch of new devs make potentially big decisions on the future of his project. Debian 10 is currently much more up to date than 14.2 is.

In theory, it would be far better for Devuan to rebase. However, this then presents the additional question of why would anyone use Devuan as a fork of that base rather than the base itself? If Devuan loses APT it loses a big part of its raison d'être. Devuan would need a very good USP - a better one than just being a non-systemd Debian, e.g. Porteus is Slackware but 'portable' [i.e. for SD cards/USB sticks], Salix is Slackware but with automated dependencies etc. It would need to bring something new to the table regardless of which base it chooses. However, I imagine the idea for now is to 'keep calm and carry on'.
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Re: init diversity in Debian

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2019-12-29 13:47

^Yes, Slackware might be too much for many, even more experienced Devuan devs. I tried it, it did boot. But I failed to upgrade it and everything seemed too manual for my taste.

I like when things are simple, but too much simplicity leads to more manual work, which in the end ruins the overall experience.
That's why I picked Go over C/C++ for my second*, compiled language. Go is simple and small like C, but it's not tedious.

* My first is Python.
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