MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

If it doesn't relate to Debian, but you still want to share it, please do it here

MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby thmtrxhsu » 2020-04-20 21:59

This would not be my first OS remaster, good old Micro XP days, but it would technically be my first Linux OS remaster. I have been playing with Linux for some time. Started with Ubuntu, loved it. If the system broke, I could easily fix it. Tinkered with Bodhi remastering, pissed of admins at the Ubuntu forums for mentioning the glory of Debian and the Evil of Ubuntu:

"Debian will not install spyware, will give you 100% freedom and choice, may not support your hardware during install because of 100% free software, stable version is stable under vast configurations, focus on stability then security, not latest software, but mostly free of bugs, stable kernel, but not the latest (most secure). Ubuntu is the exact opposite.

The only problem is that there is one piece of software at the heart of the Debian system that is free, but not free; systemd. It's primary function is to initialize processes to complete the boot process. But what it has now become in addition to that is a vast center of control, just look at the systemd changelog yourself. It is absolutely nuts what you can do with systemd; just imagine what hackers could do, it is the equivalent to sudo access that's how powerful systemd has become. Now systemd is open source, but is not 100% free like the Linux kernel for example. The linux kernel you can enable or disable many modules in the kernel at compile time. This cannot be done with systemd or is otherwise not done or adopted by any main distro; not my knowledge any way.

In comes Devuan, to rescue Debian of all evil; the hell with systemd, choose your init system. The word choose - hmm that sounds Debian like and yet Debian forces systemd upon us. A living hypocrisy if you ask me. But Devuan felt very restricted and MX felt very fat. "We mergeeee!" Thus MX NoFrills was born to rid MX of all evil.

It uses an openbox desktop (not an empty openbox shell). Furthermore, it is compatible with nearly every MX tool including mx-tools and the all important mx-packageinstaller. The whole system was built from the ground up using Devuan. You could try to do this yourself. It is a heck of a learning experience. Just as an example, you learn that pcmanfm can be launched as pcmanfm --desktop, but that that is merely an empty vessel for lxsession which is the binary which communicates with pcmanfm --desktop, and I could be mistaken but I believe it communicates at least partially through the D-bus. You learn that the D-bus accomplishes two basic functions: initializes alsa and initializes gvfsd which is the daemon for gvfs which is necessary to be able to see mount points in pcmanfm; gvfs full install thereof is insufficient. I'd say since MX uses about 650MB of ram and the ISO is 1.6GB that I have done a descent job. Under 900MB ISO and just over 250MB of RAM usage. It uses kernel 5.4.32. Why, as to support more hardware and create a more secure system at next to no stability cost. The difference in speed is monstrous. You will think MX was slow by comparison.

Alpha stage is nearly finished, but think stable alpha, it is extremely stable. I will post screenshots in the days to come. Alpha will be released April 28th, somewhere.

Image
Image
Image
public picture upload
Image
Image
Last edited by thmtrxhsu on 2020-04-24 01:41, edited 4 times in total.
thmtrxhsu
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 2020-04-09 13:46

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby Bulkley » 2020-04-20 23:47

Here's a thought for you. Download and install either Antix 19.2 net.iso or Antix 19.2 core.iso and build from there.

Check in the Antix and MX forums; several users have already done what you propose.
Bulkley
 
Posts: 6000
Joined: 2006-02-11 18:35

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-04-21 09:57

thmtrxhsu wrote:In comes Devuan

If you have made your respin using Devuan & fsmithred's Refracta tools then why are you posting here?

I'm sure the folks over at dev1galaxy.org would be more interested in your endeavours than the systemd-loving heathens here...

Speaking of which:
thmtrxhsu wrote: Now systemd is open source, but is not 100% free like the Linux kernel for example. The linux kernel you can enable or disable many modules in the kernel at compile time. This cannot be done with systemd or is otherwise not done or adopted by any main distro; not my knowledge any way.

What a load of nonsense :roll:

Please check debian/rules for the systemd package: https://salsa.debian.org/systemd-team/s ... /rules#L38

Lines 38-178 list the *many* configuration options that can be used to enable or disable the features, note that Debian disables rather a lot of them.

And furthermore it is possible to restrict systemd at runtime by simply disabling unwanted unit files. If that isn't enough units can even be "masked" (linked to /dev/null), which will prevent them from ever being called by other unit files — I use this in my GNOME desktop to get the RAM usage down to ~450MiB.

thmtrxhsu wrote:Debian forces systemd upon us

More nonsense, Debian offers three alternatives for the init metapackage: https://packages.debian.org/buster/init

That's two more than Devuan, interestingly: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/beowul ... vuan1.html

thmtrxhsu wrote:I'd say since MX uses about 650MB of ram

Not sure where you're getting that figure from, if I boot MX-19.1 in a VM with 4GiB assigned then 'free -h' reports 415MiB used at the bare desktop just after boot.

thmtrxhsu wrote:I have done a descent job. Under 900MB ISO and just over 250MB of RAM usage

I've had MX down to roughly that figure by stripping out the stuff I didn't want: https://forum.mxlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 71#p566771

And it booted and shut down *much* faster when I changed to systemd as the default init system :mrgreen:

thmtrxhsu wrote:It uses kernel 5.4.32. Why, as to support more hardware and create a more secure system at next to no stability cost.

So how are you proposing to keep that custom kernel updated then? That version doesn't appear to be one of the supported LTS branches and is already out of date: https://www.kernel.org/

Your claims of security and stability are also doubtful, the new features introduced for each new kernel release also offer the potential for new bugs & vulnerabilities and regressions are unfortunately common in Linux.
Black Lives Matter

Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby cuckooflew » 2020-04-21 13:59

thmtrxhsu wrote:
Debian forces systemd upon us

Who is "us" ?, I can not speak for others, but as for me, nobody forces me to use Debian, with or with out systemd, where I live we are all free to choose which OS we use, and there are many alternatives , choices, besides Debian, with or with out systemd. I do feel sorry for whoever "us" ,(they) are, I mean those that are forced to use a certain OS, and version.
Ahh, if you are forced to use Debian with systemd, How is it possible you can also use the other distro's mentioned ? Anyway, the topic is humorous ,
by Head_on_a_Stick »(partial)----snip---I'm sure the folks over at dev1galaxy.org would be more interested in your endeavours than the systemd-loving heathens here...

:lol: :lol: that's a good one , so I must be a heathen,...but maybe not , I don't love it, but at the same time I don't hate it, am I a "heathen"
and entertaining. Have a good day, or night
Please Read What we expect you have already Done
Search Engines know a lot, and
"If God had wanted computers to work all the time, He wouldn't have invented RESET buttons"
and
Just say NO to help vampires!
cuckooflew
 
Posts: 683
Joined: 2018-05-10 19:34
Location: Some where out west

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby thmtrxhsu » 2020-04-22 22:11

@Head on a stick

What constructive feedback you provide, simultaneously slightly insulting but not over the top :)

You have expanded my knowledge of systemd, but she still a fat cow with cow powers.
Even so, I'm glad that those systemd mitigations put your mind at ease, but you are fooling yourself and that's ok.
Also, it is clear that you prioritize bling over light and not the other way around otherwise you would not settle for 450MB of ram.
MX NoFrills is currently at 260MB of ram, but I still want the magic number of 190MB of ram to further add insult to Windows 10.
I have very high standards, if anyone created a respin. I doubt it would meet my standards.
Just so were clear, last I looked a live boot of MX used between 600-650MB of RAM; yes you can remaster the live boot to reduce that to 450, but who cares.
And as you know, and should know the df -h and ram usage of a virtual machine install of an OS especially linux is always much lower; you can't cheat without me calling you on it.
I am happy that you are happy with your systemd, I'm very pleased that you will have no need to test my release :) Because it has to be superior.
I'm sure my upcoming screenshots will further dissuade you, and this pleases me.
I'll tell you the only thing I am annoyed it is that so many packages depend on systemd and creates are more prominent dependency hell.
Why can't someone just reverse engineer systemd's software related functions (so non-network related software) to work with other inits; it can surely be done.
As for the kernel, I will say nothing, forcing you to have to test my release to answer your own question :)

"Your claims of security and stability are also doubtful, the new features introduced for each new kernel release also offer the potential for new bugs & vulnerabilities and regressions are unfortunately common in Linux."
You missed the thought mark on that one; started strong though. It's all about what is "known". Hackers will know of flaws in older non-cutting edge kernels; from this they may also know flaws that remain in new kernels and discover related flaws, but they know much more of the old then they do of the new; new requires discovery. The old is discovered :) So yes, newer is generally more secure with a few kernel management screw ups here and there.
thmtrxhsu
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 2020-04-09 13:46

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby sunrat » 2020-04-23 00:42

thmtrxhsu wrote:@Head on a stick
What constructive feedback you provide, simultaneously slightly insulting but not over the top :)

He has the honorary role of Official Reality Checker. :mrgreen:

I have very high standards, if anyone created a respin. I doubt it would meet my standards.

I've tried several MX respins and all were disappointing compared to using base MX and configuring myself. Even the MXStudio respin I made myself, which worked really well, was eventually replaced by a Debian system with similar config. My Buster KDE system uses about 400-450MB RAM when idle. Considering it has 16GB RAM available, I consider trying to reduce it as being merely academic, not practical.

I am happy that you are happy with your systemd, I'm very pleased that you will have no need to test my release :) Because it has to be superior.

I've been using Debian with systemd for 6-7 years now. It was rough around the edges at first but now I appreciate it's advantages and prefer it to sysv.

But far be it for me to dissuade you from your pursuit, got to amuse oneself somehow during lockdown. The reason you are posting about it in Debian forum rather than MX forum eludes me though.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!
User avatar
sunrat
 
Posts: 3225
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby stevepusser » 2020-04-23 02:52

Maybe we can use your KDE expertise over on MX, since we devs have been discussing an official KDE version.

MX 19.1 also comes with a custom MX Fluxbox desktop along with the xfce one, which munches on less RAM.
MX Linux packager and developer
User avatar
stevepusser
 
Posts: 12058
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-04-23 09:25

thmtrxhsu wrote:Also, it is clear that you prioritize bling over light and not the other way around otherwise you would not settle for 450MB of ram

At the moment I'm running off a Ryzen laptop with 16GiB of RAM so 200MiB here or there makes little difference to me. I'm posting this with just Firefox running and that's taking up over 1GiB of memory, which would still be the case with even the most minimal window manager (hint: not openbox), so the desktop environment isn't particularly significant.

Back when I had less well-endowed hardware I did take more care over the used RAM: viewtopic.php?p=689620#p689620 ← 72MiB with systemd :)

But if you want minimal then try Alpine Linux, it's awesome: viewtopic.php?p=695442#p695442 ← 35MiB used at a full graphical desktop.

thmtrxhsu wrote:MX NoFrills is currently at 260MB of ram, but I still want the magic number of 190MB of ram to further add insult to Windows 10.
I have very high standards, if anyone created a respin. I doubt it would meet my standards.

You might want to take a look at ThomOS, that is also Devuan-based with an openbox desktop and it only uses ~50Mib RAM in my tests (305MiB ISO image):

Image

Just add the MX repositories to install their tools in that environment, they should be compatible.

See also CROWZ and STAR, both Devuan-based with openbox desktops, both ~500MiB images and both running at >100MiB RAM.

As I said you really should be posting this over at the Devuan forums, they even have a whole section devoted to derivatives: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=9

thmtrxhsu wrote:Just so were clear, last I looked a live boot of MX used between 600-650MB of RAM; yes you can remaster the live boot to reduce that to 450, but who cares.
And as you know, and should know the df -h and ram usage of a virtual machine install of an OS especially linux is always much lower; you can't cheat without me calling you on it.

Very well, I look forward to your release and will be sure to post the 'free -h' result when running on the bare metal. I don't think you'll like the results though :mrgreen:

thmtrxhsu wrote:Why can't someone just reverse engineer systemd's software related functions (so non-network related software) to work with other inits; it can surely be done.

It has been done — s6, runit-init and openrc-init can all do pretty much everything systemd can do but with a *much* lower memory and codebase overhead.

You really should consider using either OpenRC or runit as the service manager instead of sysvinit, the latter is an antiquated piece of crap that doesn't even offer true process supervision. See also https://busybox.net/~vda/init_vs_runsv.html

thmtrxhsu wrote:You missed the thought mark on that one; started strong though. It's all about what is "known". Hackers will know of flaws in older non-cutting edge kernels; from this they may also know flaws that remain in new kernels and discover related flaws, but they know much more of the old then they do of the new; new requires discovery. The old is discovered :) So yes, newer is generally more secure with a few kernel management screw ups here and there.

But Debian backport any and all security fixes to their stable kernel, as do the upstream kernel developers for all of their supported LTS branches.

My point is that your kernel version is already outdated (and so contains known vulnerabilities) and doesn't seem to be one of the LTS versions. So I ask again: how do you intend to keep it updated?
Black Lives Matter

Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby thmtrxhsu » 2020-04-26 03:51

@ Head on a stick

I guarantee I could out-due both those distros you pointed to by any measure; they look amateurish. Their kernels are alsa high compatibility but shit 686 arch; ancient. I'll give them credit, they did a great job of a minimal open box installation except for the bling aspect; just a piss poor job. I've become annoyed with the dependency hell of Devuan, thus I am following MX's model of keeping systemd and systemd-shim to avoid a bunch of hard ache. There's more to build a distribution then mere random assembly. You have to understand each component and who makes the best. So I'll give you an example, the best session manager is XFCE4 bar none; in fact, it rips Openbox's arse. Openbox session if you look at the scripts is mere autostart execution. In fact that is part of what session means, "must include autostart, must include save...". You have a bunch people capable of creating systems, but if you don't know what does what best then you are just creating a piece of crap. When I look at those two distros, I see crap. Kernel updates are easy. I use xanmod, but 5.4.34 proved less stable than 5.4.32.... sudo apt update sudo apt upgrade...that's how you keep it updated and that far faster than the frequency of Debian's kernel updates; and the xanmod is a superior kernel in every way. BTW, the freespace command...on my devuan build did meet that 2GB mark, not 2.1, exactly 2GB.
thmtrxhsu
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 2020-04-09 13:46

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby golinux » 2020-04-26 04:21

Why would you want to prevent recycling of older hardware by not providing i386/686 iso. That is selfish and irresponsible imo. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you consider to be "crap" is likely to be someone else's main course. Your opinion is just that . . . your opinion and an arrogant and opinionated one too. That attitude has no place in a cooperative free software environment (again imo). Devuan will do just fine without you.
May the FORK be with you!
User avatar
golinux
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: 2010-12-09 00:56
Location: not a 'buntard!

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2020-04-26 09:41

thmtrxhsu wrote:I guarantee I could out-due both those distros you pointed to by any measure; they look amateurish.

Both Zephyr and Ozi are very experienced De{vu,bi}an users who actually know what they're doing. Unlike you.

thmtrxhsu wrote:I use xanmod

So why didn't you just say that when I asked you? You really are an irritating little shit...

thmtrxhsu wrote:but 5.4.34 proved less stable than 5.4.32.... sudo apt update sudo apt upgrade...that's how you keep it updated

Hold on a minute: you're going to "release" an image with an outdated kernel version that contains known vulnerabilites (unlike Debian's stable kernel) which will be changed as soon as the user runs 'apt upgrade'? What the **** is the point of that? That's just moronic.

thmtrxhsu wrote:far faster than the frequency of Debian's kernel updates

Yeah, great, so the user gets all the new bugs, vulnerabilities and regressions really quickly. Fantastic. [/sarcasm]
Black Lives Matter

Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 12612
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby trinidad » 2020-04-26 11:50

Maybe we can use your KDE expertise over on MX, since we devs have been discussing an official KDE version.


KDE is under consideration at Linux Lite too. Main reasons: vastly more robust dev team than XFCE, RAM numbers on core comparable with XFCE these days, wayland compatibility, most Windows like in appearance.

TC
You can't believe your eyes if your imagination is out of focus.
trinidad
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 2016-08-04 14:58

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby anticapitalista » 2020-04-26 12:30

trinidad wrote:
KDE is under consideration at Linux Lite too. Main reasons: [snip] ... most Windows like in appearance.

TC


Best reason to avoid it IMO :D
antiX with runit - lean and mean.
https://antixlinux.com
anticapitalista
 
Posts: 387
Joined: 2007-12-14 23:16

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby sunrat » 2020-04-26 13:34

anticapitalista wrote:
trinidad wrote:
KDE is under consideration at Linux Lite too. Main reasons: [snip] ... most Windows like in appearance.

TC


Best reason to avoid it IMO :D

Avoid Windows? It's been copying KDE for years. :lol:
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!
User avatar
sunrat
 
Posts: 3225
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MX NoFrills Release Inbound (Photos)

Postby Bulkley » 2020-04-26 15:01

thmtrxhsu, why are you posting a MX re-spin here at Debian User Forums? This forum is about Debian. MX is a great OS but outside the mandate for this forum. By all means make a MX re-spin and post it on the MX Linux Forum.
Bulkley
 
Posts: 6000
Joined: 2006-02-11 18:35

Next

Return to Offtopic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

fashionable