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Any way to control an undetected fan?

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efdevse
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Any way to control an undetected fan?

#1 Post by efdevse »

I have this old laptop I'm setting up for a friend (so he can try Linux). It's a Fujitsu Amilo Si 1520, and the BIOS doesn't have any options for CPU or fan controls — and it gets quite hot.

The fan works, but in an unwanted way. It starts at ≈ 60°C, and stops again at 50°C. In between it's all quiet.

I installed TLP installed and set it up to run in battery mode all the time. That keeps it mostly at ≈ 55°C. Still to warm.

The problem is that neither sensors-detect or pwmconfig pick up the fan, and I haven't found anything in the proc|sys-files that hopefully could indicate at least something about the fan. Was hoping to find some values to fiddle around with.

The fan is an ADDA AB5505HB-HBB. A 4-pin fan, but not a PWM …appearently.

Here's a pic if that helps:
Image

Is there any way to control the fan, without hardware modding? It would be great if I could set a low rpm, like a “min-speed”, or if is a way to manually change the interval from 40-50 (instead of 50-60).

Any ideas?

Best,
· Eric

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#2 Post by cuckooflew »

Hamster Powered Fan

Create an electrical connection to a fan that you build yourself without any batteries. Connect the fan to the hamster wheel however you want. Through trial and error, power the fan by having the hamster turn the wheel.
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efdevse
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#3 Post by efdevse »

cuckooflew wrote:Hamster Powered Fan
Haha… That'd be something. :mrgreen: Well, I live on the countryside, so there are always small mices running around. Perhaps I can catch one and teach him the job. :P

Would prefer to get the fan working tho… :–)

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#4 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

Hmm... but how the mouse will now whether to run faster or slower?
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#5 Post by stevepusser »

No, most laptop fans cannot be detected and controlled by Linux. You may be able to modify the BIOS to change the temperatures at which it engages and stops, or even the kernel driver which controls it, but that is more complicated.
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efdevse
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#6 Post by efdevse »

stevepusser wrote:No, most laptop fans cannot be detected and controlled by Linux. You may be able to modify the BIOS to change the temperatures at which it engages and stops, or even the kernel driver which controls it, but that is more complicated.
Yes, it is. I'll see if I can come up with som hardware modding instead. Had an idea of feeding a low voltage to the fan to make it spin at a slow speed all the time – and if I could control the power flow with some diods, so it can run when/if the fan wants to run like it wants to. My neighbour is an electrictian, so I'll have to bounce that idea with him. :–)

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#7 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

efdevse wrote:The fan works, but in an unwanted way. It starts at ≈ 60°C, and stops again at 50°C. In between it's all quiet.

I installed TLP installed and set it up to run in battery mode all the time. That keeps it mostly at ≈ 55°C. Still to warm.
Nope, it's not too warm - the CPU is not a human - it can easily withstand temperatures over 36.6 deg.C :)

This is a common misunderstanding, that the lower the CPU temps are somehow "better" - while in fact, the only task for cooling systems is to keep the CPU temperature below some critical level, at which the thermal throttling becomes necessary. For most CPUs, thermal throttling starts at 65..75 degrees Celsius -> so basically, Your laptop cooling system works properly.
Of course, we could discuss here whether the fan speed profile could be better or not - but this is not changing the basic fact -> it works correctly.

Regards.
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efdevse
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#8 Post by efdevse »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:Nope, it's not too warm - the CPU is not a human - it can easily withstand temperatures over 36.6 deg.C :)

This is a common misunderstanding, that the lower the CPU temps are somehow "better" - while in fact, the only task for cooling systems is to keep the CPU temperature below some critical level, at which the thermal throttling becomes necessary. For most CPUs, thermal throttling starts at 65..75 degrees Celsius -> so basically, Your laptop cooling system works properly.
Of course, we could discuss here whether the fan speed profile could be better or not - but this is not changing the basic fact -> it works correctly.

Regards.
Thanks for your input. +1 Yes, from a technical standpoint you are abs correct. What I meant is th laptop it self gets way too hot, and is still too warm. When running i normal mode, on power… It gets really hot down the right side. That is not the CPU*, but a chipset I saw under the Wi-Fi card. And when I say hot - I mean so hot that you can't rest you hand there. Now, when I run it ≈ 55°C, it's not that hot – but still quite warm.

I'm going to give this one away (after my friend have been testing it). So, it'd be nice to be able to lower the heat (children?). Being a tiny 12" laptop with nearly no space inside… that doesn't help either. But, it responds well, is kind of snappy, and RAM har so far not exceeded 800MB (of 3GB). :–)

* CPU is a 35W Core 2 Duo (T7200)

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#9 Post by Dai_trying »

This might work for you if you are adventurous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocTOD0vBFgc

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efdevse
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#10 Post by efdevse »

Dai_trying wrote:This might work for you if you are adventurous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocTOD0vBFgc
Yes, maybe something like that, but in reverse. I need to make it spin, when it's not - instead of slowing it down.

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#11 Post by stevepusser »

Has it ever been disassembled and all the accumulated dust and drek cleaned out? If the CPU isn't too hot, it probably doesn't need repasting.

And some laptops just run hot, no matter what. Some Apple products were infamous for that--form over function.
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efdevse
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#12 Post by efdevse »

stevepusser wrote:Has it ever been disassembled and all the accumulated dust and drek cleaned out? If the CPU isn't too hot, it probably doesn't need repasting.

And some laptops just run hot, no matter what. Some Apple products were infamous for that--form over function.
Everything is cleaned out, and new paste on the CPU. First thing I did - even before installing anything. Good practice. :–) Yes, I guess the smaller laptop it is, the less of room for the heat to move around. And it is an older CPU: 34W/65nm. Just a tiny bit of constant airflow would do a lot, but I don't want to lose original fan control, so it can speed up when it needs to. That'd be great, if possible.

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#13 Post by Dai_trying »

efdevse wrote:
Dai_trying wrote:This might work for you if you are adventurous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocTOD0vBFgc
Yes, maybe something like that, but in reverse. I need to make it spin, when it's not - instead of slowing it down.
I didn't re-watch the whole video but I recall it was spinning permanently at a constant speed set by the amount of voltage drop from the diodes, but that could have been another video I've watch quite a few of his, but still wouldn't give you speed control.

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#14 Post by efdevse »

Dai_trying wrote:I didn't re-watch the whole video but I recall it was spinning permanently at a constant speed set by the amount of voltage drop from the diodes, but that could have been another video I've watch quite a few of his, but still wouldn't give you speed control.
Yes, his problem was a fan spinning constant, at a loud/high speed, and he dropped the voltage with 3 diods.
My issue is that it's not spinning at all, between the fan spins up to kool it. And that is what makes the surface so hot.

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#15 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

A relatively simple solution would be to inject PWM signal from a separate generator (f.e. build on NE555 chip), but in the first post You've said that HW modding is not an option - so there's only one option left: You have to get used to it ;)
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#16 Post by efdevse »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:A relatively simple solution would be to inject PWM signal from a separate generator (f.e. build on NE555 chip), but in the first post You've said that HW modding is not an option - so there's only one option left: You have to get used to it ;)
No, I didn't say it wasn't an option. I asked if it was possible… without hw modding. :–)

I'll look more into this. Thanks for the tip. +1

You mean something like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGAdYAlR3A or do you know some good guides/examples? This one looked kindof interesting to: https://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialog ... speed.html

Maybe another idea would be to just make it spin all the time, and add a thermal resistor?

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#17 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

First You have to make sure how the fan is controlled, by measuring voltages on the connector:
1. When the fan is stopped, the voltages on particular pins should be: GND=0V, VCC=5V, PWM=0V. (GND can be on +5V level -> not a PWM)
2. When the fan is rotating, the voltage on PWM pin should be close to +5V or +3.3V

If the voltages are different, then most likely the ON-OFF method is used, and not PWM -> in such situation a different solution have to be used.
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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#18 Post by pylkko »

other tweaks to the the hardware you can do is oil the fan (so it rotates more smoothly) and increase ventilation by making additional holes into the chassis, or on some laptops it helps to remove the battery (if you do not use it). Undervoltage/underclocking helps, but may not be possible on that device. Adding extra cooling (more heatsinks or fans).

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#19 Post by efdevse »

LE_746F6D617A7A69 wrote:First You have to make sure how the fan is controlled, by measuring voltages on the connector:
1. When the fan is stopped, the voltages on particular pins should be: GND=0V, VCC=5V, PWM=0V. (GND can be on +5V level -> not a PWM)
2. When the fan is rotating, the voltage on PWM pin should be close to +5V or +3.3V

If the voltages are different, then most likely the ON-OFF method is used, and not PWM -> in such situation a different solution have to be used.
Thanks! +1 I'll have a good look at this later.
pylkko wrote:other tweaks to the the hardware you can do is oil the fan (so it rotates more smoothly) and increase ventilation by making additional holes into the chassis, or on some laptops it helps to remove the battery (if you do not use it). Undervoltage/underclocking helps, but may not be possible on that device. Adding extra cooling (more heatsinks or fans).
Thanks… Yes, fan is cleaned and a tiny drop of oil. :–) I've made my own mixture/blend from driveshaft grease (it's basically graphite grease, and can stand heat) and thinned it out with oil to get a good thickness. Not sticky, not rinny – so it doesn't dry out in a few months like many other products do.

Unfortunately the BIOS is really stripped down. No options for CPU &/or fans. There are options though in TLP to set it to like 1.67 instead of 2GHz. I might play around with that later. Haven't used that program before much. Normally I don't use laptops that much. Prefer desktop computers. :–)

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Re: Any way to control an undetected fan?

#20 Post by efdevse »

efdevse wrote:Here's a pic if that helps:
Image
Made a better picture now, to show all the areas inside, and that i/o chip.

Image

Left the lid on the side so you can see the intakes, and loosened the Wi-Fi card to expose the i/o chipset. Thats the one who gets really hot - that makes it hot on the top side (the red marked area).

The i/o chip is this one: Intel 82801GBM. In the middle of the page there is this spec: “CASE 99°C-108°C” Clicking the ? mark says: “Case Temperature is the maximum temperature allowed at the processor Integrated Heat Spreader (IHS).”

Wonder if it wouldn't be best to try to get a half-sized SSD and put a small fan there instead, pointing toward that chip?

The blue recatangle is an RJ11 on the side. Maybe that hole can be used for a potentiometer (fan speed knob).

One thing that is kind of disturbing with the design, is between the CPU/RAM area, and the Wi-Fi/disk area… there's like a wall which prevents the air to move around better. Well, it's a part of the chassi (stability) so I won't do anything to that one.

Anyway… That's how it looks inside.

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