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Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

Off-Topic discussions about science, technology, and non Debian specific topics.
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LE_746F6D617A7A69
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#21 Post by LE_746F6D617A7A69 »

I was referring to this statement:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:(...) Linux lacks coherent per-application sandboxing (and no, firejail doesn't count, user namespaces are a gaping wide hole in the system).
1. Linux is the kernel, not a distribution, and the kernel supports per-application sandboxing.
2. I'm sure You know that it's trivially easy to sandbox every single application f.e. by simply modifying its startup script/launcher.

Now, the question is why sandboxing is needed at all?
You have mentioned Chromium - this is a very good example, because it explains the need for sandboxing applications on Android:
The reason for sandboxing web browsers is that they are executing unknown, untested, possibly unreliable and possibly harmful code -> the web pages code.
In a normal system (like Debian) there are only 2 kinds of applications which can execute code from unknown sources: web browsers and e-mail readers. Every other program (application) has a constant code, and if it comes from Debian repositories, You can be sure that it's not a virus/malware.

So, It is completely OK that Debian is not sanboxing every single application -> that would make no sense, since 100% application on Debian are proven to not be a malware. Sandboxing is not a cost-free -> it causes serious performance drop and higher power consumption (much more code has to be executed during simple task switching - thousands of times per second)

But this is not the case in Android woirld: 99% of the applications are using external sources f.e.. for displaying advertisements (there are other reasons too...) -> so every application behaves similarly to a web browser -> it can download and execute unknown/dangerous code.
Another problem is, that many of the Android apps are coming from untrusted sources -> f.e. if You new shiny smartwatch requires to download some app for activation, from completely untrusted/non-verified web site...

Yet another thing is, that sandboxing does not defend the users from applications intentionally created for spying/collecting unwanted informations about the user - because formally they are "normal" applications ;)

Yet another thing is, that sandboxing does not prevent the applications to use security holes in underlying system services...
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Deb-fan
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#22 Post by Deb-fan »

Lots of interesting technical tidbits, thanks for sharing/arguing fellas. :)

The damn gnu/Linux is lacking security thing again?!?? Saying nix isn't ready for mobile because of some innate security concern is like saying it's not ready for laptop/desktop. Which is clearly ridiculous.

An operating system security on any form factor is directly proportional to the amount of users control. If the end-user has admin privileges, they can implode and/or compromise anything in the push of a few buttons. Think gnu/Linux and the open source model has long been more secure than say Windows but also know MS intentionally left users exposed(more exposed), simple things like separating admin/user accts are a big jump forward in terms of PC security alone.
Brilliant brainfart edit: In terms of Android a huge % of users aren't given root, they're using un-rooted devices, thus yep that also must confer a security advantage to the Android operating system. Though for more technically savvy users, rooting is possible too. Not having root on any personal device tends to drive me bonkers. In terms of less proficient users it's a big advantage for stability and security though.
More I've thought about it and researched this n that to confirm or clarify, more I'm blown away by what Google Inc managed in harnessing open source, esp the situation with Android and mobile, topic is awe inspiring and stuff of legend at this point. Honestly think with Android around gnu/nix and mobile is pointless. Though is bound to start getting some long due recognition on desktop and others. At least gaining a nice chunk of users anyway. Don't see why anything could ever be able to displace nix in production/Enterprise, same should be for desktop but with Android, including an apparent massive open source community interest around it in one fell swoop Google pretty much decapitated conventional gnu/Linux prospects of moving into consumer electronics mobile.

PS, brainfart:

Google's also a premiere champion in supporting and promoting open source by developing these projects too, there's ungoogled Android, ChromiumOs vs ChromeOs and Chromium browser vs Chrome. Think it's ingenius how they set things up, open source communities do a huge chunk of the development and testing, Google sits back, shines the end product up a bit, packages it for shipment and WHAM, waits for the money to come rolling in.

A LOT of people are bound to hear about open source (and gnu/Linux) due to Google's projects.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#23 Post by kedaha »

To quote the Free Software Foundation:
Most mobile devices are not controlled by the users, but by the manufacturer and the operator. The software that runs on them is not Free Software.[ ...]
Our mobile devices contain more personal information than most private diaries. But proprietary systems, even most Android phones, are designed to hand over this data to companies like Google or Apple.
My mobile has, for example a nice weather app but also quite a lot of of preinstalled stuff which I have no intention of using but some often prompt me to enable them like, for example using voice commands or sending SMS via some proprietary app.
Finally, with Covid contact tracing coming down the pipeline, they could try and compel everyone to use devices loaded with proprietary apps with or without user consent. Like the telescreen in George Orwell's 1984 book.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#24 Post by Deb-fan »

Dammit!

One more dorkish observation on gnu/nix and Android, specifically on desktop. Noted some potential application of installing/using Android or ChromeOs to get access to Android apps on desktop. Virtual machines and emulators tech has clearly come a mind boggling long way. Android due to it's ridiculous popularity has natively supported apps for things even conventional gnu/Linux desktop might never develop. So for people in that situation or the I have to keep Windows cause xyz isn't available in nix or whatever, this could have potential.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#25 Post by Deb-fan »

Another observation on Android + security. Clearly another thing on the gnu/Linux platform which has tended to confer increased security, often users get and install software from trusted repositories. Google/Android also takes advantage of this, the Google play store. They do vet and police apps allowed there. Devs cannot just upload malicious apps on to the GPStore. Also Google makes a buttload of money from apps. However as with gnu/Linux of course there are alternative sources for apk's that users can install software from. If they so choose but why could they need to, there's like 1gazillion apps there to choose from!?

More I consider this stuff, more I'm forced to say, if-when I ever grow up, I wanna be like Google. :)
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#26 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

kedaha wrote:To quote the Free Software Foundation:
Most mobile devices are not controlled by the users, but by the manufacturer and the operator. The software that runs on them is not Free Software.[ ...]
Our mobile devices contain more personal information than most private diaries. But proprietary systems, even most Android phones, are designed to hand over this data to companies like Google or Apple.
Both LineageOS and GrapheneOS do not include any Google applications, they must be installed separately if the user wants them.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#27 Post by kedaha »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Both LineageOS and GrapheneOS do not include any Google applications, they must be installed separately if the user wants them.
I think I'd gladly use either of them if I had a supported device.
I've made some progress with Maemo Leste on my Nokia n900. I've been able to install it to a 32GB Micro SD card and boot it and everything works as summarised in this status link. The wifi works well and I can connect to it easily by ssh too but making phone calls with a UI for contacts and sending SMS seem to be some way off. So acquiring another, second-hand device looks like the best option for the time being.

Edit: Readers of this topic might find this video interesting:
FOSDEM 2020 postmarketOS and Maemo Leste: Status of Linux on the smartphone
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#28 Post by Palomino »

I also think LineageOS is a better OS than any other OS out there. Maybe I am just biased since I only use this OS. And with this OS, I am able to use my Launch Scan tool https://bestobd2scanners.com/launch/.
Last edited by Palomino on 2020-08-31 07:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#29 Post by pylkko »

kedaha wrote: I think I'd gladly use either of them if I had a supported device.
You need to buy a device that has support to begin with (or that will likely have support).

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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#30 Post by kedaha »

pylkko wrote:You need to buy a device that has support to begin with (or that will likely have support).
I bought my latest Android device back in March so I'll think twice about buying something else any time soon.

The librem5 would be a good choice since it not only has its own debian-like system but it also runs on free hardware. However, it is a bit on the pricey side. :( I started this topic when I saw that development of Maemo Leste was progressing and as I mentioned, I've installed the development image of this OS on my old Nokia n900. Old? Not really because it is as good as new and even the battery keeps it going quite a long time but I didn't use it very much after I bought it back in 2013. So I will probably wait for Maemo Leste to mature further.

Meanwhile I've reinstalled my android mobile to the factory defaults and proceeded to do without most of the Google stuff like the "Playstore" so as to use free f-droid apps instead. I installed quite a lot of free stuff including, notably, the IceCatMobile Web browser, which is lightning fast.

Having thought about this subject, or rather mulled over it for some time, I've come to the conclusion that the development of 100% free Gnu/Linux operating systems for mobile phones is of paramount importance. Why? For the reasons given on the FSF page, Free Your Android! for a start.
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#31 Post by Deb-fan »

Something that looks pretty interesting, kinda combo nix - droid sort of.

https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid

Really interesting no matter what. Installed a terminal emulator on my cheapy Android phone, its funny messing with the thing. Installed busybox too but its not going to work on the thing natively w/o rooting it and atm dont want to even try. Did this before on a rooted device of course it was more fun to mess with then. Still lotsa cool and interesting parallels, maybe cross overs for gnu/nix + android on mobile. The AOSP (open source android) possibly.

Random weirdness: Folks can get mucho more open source on mobile just clearly made more difficult. Also folks tend to constantly gripe about Google but bottomline, they provide a lot of cool/useful services too. Ahhhh
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#32 Post by Scorpion »

I don' t use the phone, also my phone sucks only 1 GB of ram.
If I used the phone I would love to have debian with gnome :D

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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#33 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Bump!

Don't use the PinePhone, it will burn your house down: https://xnux.eu/log/#017
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Re: Does anyone here use, or intend to use, a Linux Phone?

#34 Post by kedaha »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Bump!

Don't use the PinePhone, it will burn your house down: https://xnux.eu/log/#017
:shock:
Thanks for bumping the topic. That definitely wouldn't be much fun...
I'm still waiting for further progress on Maemo Leste for my nokia n900 but it seems to be so leisurely that I may look at the other options some time soon.
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