Renaming of Ion3 in Debian

News and discussion about development of the Debian OS itself

What name should Debian use?

Poll ended at 2007-05-14 12:23

Union (both "un-ion" and a pun on what is actually a "fork")
8
26%
Fission (pun on a particle "breaking up")
10
32%
Radical (pun on "radical ion" + managing the root ("radix") window)
0
No votes
Ion3-deviant (play on Debian + variant and the idea that modified versions are broken)
0
No votes
Iceparticle (following an established trend...)
13
42%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby DeanLinkous » 2007-05-07 23:19

I like union. Nonion would be cool IMO but onion would be neat too. The whole thing is a bit lame so go for a lame name that will alert everyon to the issue - ice-particle! He seems to claim that even something with ion in the name would not be legit.

Was reading here
http://archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-user ... 04658.html
and came across this gem...
Welcome to the real world. The world where the FOSS herd advances
its selfish [sic] least-common-denominator herd interests by fraud,
deception and lying; by claiming the software they patched with shit
that they author does not approve of, to be the original. The world
where the FOSS herd keeps destroying everything that was good about
*nix, and replacing it with sorry Windows-inspired kludges, that
are too complex for the power user to configure to his liking
anymore; turning it into an idiot box? That is the spirit of open
source you talk about?

--
Tuomo

The rest of the thread is a good read also. It appears that he claims that even a set of instructions that builds ion3 plus patches would constitute a derived work itself - not the software built but even the instructions to do so....
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!
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Ouron? Weon?

Postby Velvet Elvis » 2007-05-08 00:04

Some form of the first person plural to put emphasis on community and also say "he's got his and we've got ours."

Edited to add a couple of my favorite Tuomo quotes:

Did you xinerama causes global warming?

http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/ion-g ... 01809.html

> I don't like xinerama therefore:

... I am not going to waste my breath supporting it. Recent
research, BTW, suggests that the manufacturing of a computer
with a monitor, takes five times as much energy as the
manufacturing of a car. And it is well-known that the
manufacturing of a car takes much more energy (but not with
quite as high a factor as the above) than a car uses in its
lifetime -- which also isn't a small number. So, there,
you techno-toy fetists chasing after the latest cool gizmo
and upgrading your hardware every few months: your lifestyle
may not last long.


Life would be easier for software developers if there were no users:
http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/ion-g ... 01806.html
The less users, the better. Users a problem: they make demands, requests,
and complaints. I just want to finish this shit and forget about it.
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Postby Vergil » 2007-05-08 00:51

tuomov wrote:Only "radical" and "iceparticle" are acceptable names. The rest are GAIM vs. AIM all over again, or worse.

I don't think it is quite the same. Gaim is not a word itself, just the trademark word with a letter added (standing for something). I think that Fion (free ion) would not work, but Union is a unique word in its own right.
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Postby lexual » 2007-05-08 02:05

I think cation would be a good name.
It's a positive ion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation
That get's my vote.
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Postby tuomov » 2007-05-08 05:36

Vergil wrote:
tuomov wrote:Only "radical" and "iceparticle" are acceptable names. The rest are GAIM vs. AIM all over again, or worse.

I don't think it is quite the same. Gaim is not a word itself, just the trademark word with a letter added (standing for something). I think that Fion (free ion) would not work, but Union is a unique word in its own right.


AIM is not a word either, the way it's written; Ion is.

Being a derived work, it's obvious that the intent in "union" etc. is to refer to the original work.

You know, I can always modify the license for future releases to not allow any particular name you choose. (It's not trademark-only.)

Or I could make it closed source, but I thought Ion3 would be my final gift to the FOSS herd, that it can never hope to repay. After that I'll be sticking to writing closed source -- perhaps for Windows. The FOSS herd simply isn't worth my work.
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Postby lexual » 2007-05-08 06:15

Being a derived work, it's obvious that the intent in "union" etc. is to refer to the original work.

You know, I can always modify the license for future releases to not allow any particular name you choose. (It's not trademark-only.)

Or I could make it closed source, but I thought Ion3 would be my final gift to the FOSS herd, that it can never hope to repay. After that I'll be sticking to writing closed source -- perhaps for Windows. The FOSS herd simply isn't worth my work.


tuomov,
As a user and non-developer, can I start by saying thanks for your great WM. I do hope you continue to contribute to open source in the future.

I'll admit to knowing next to nothing about trademark, copyright, etc.

I do have a question though.

Is limiting any word matching *ion* really fair given that:

>>$ grep ion /usr/share/dict/british-english | wc
4237 4237 54330

>>$cat /usr/share/dict/british-english | wc
98326 98325 929603

I make that to be roughly 4%.

I do hope that whichever name that is chosen does not have the unfortunate negative connotations of iceweasel.

Cheers,

Lex.
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Postby tuomov » 2007-05-08 06:47

As a user and non-developer, can I start by saying thanks for your great WM. I do hope you continue to contribute to open source in the future.


There's little hope of that. By now it's quite apparent, that FOSS only works as long as you "go with the herd" -- the herd that guided by its ideology, controls the powerful distributions that define what software is easily available, and what it looks like. The herd that does not even try to negotiate and resolve the larger issues at hand (the degradation of *nix into a clusterfuck of steaming shit), but rather forks (silently or not) whenever authors don't go with the herd.

I'm not with the herd.

I do hope that whichever name that is chosen does not have the unfortunate negative connotations of iceweasel.


I do hope that it does.
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Postby chrismortimore » 2007-05-08 07:16

DeanLinkous wrote:The rest of the thread is a good read also.
Not what I would call it. But I'm sure from that thread, you can tell what my views were.

I vote Ion should be removed out of principle. But I refuse to enter a flame war on an open thread, so PM me if you really want to know why.
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Postby thamarok » 2007-05-08 10:37

Lion
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Postby Pobega » 2007-05-08 10:52

tuomov wrote:
As a user and non-developer, can I start by saying thanks for your great WM. I do hope you continue to contribute to open source in the future.


There's little hope of that. By now it's quite apparent, that FOSS only works as long as you "go with the herd" -- the herd that guided by its ideology, controls the powerful distributions that define what software is easily available, and what it looks like. The herd that does not even try to negotiate and resolve the larger issues at hand (the degradation of *nix into a clusterfuck of steaming shit), but rather forks (silently or not) whenever authors don't go with the herd.

I'm not with the herd.


Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I don't quite understand what you mean about the FOSS herd. I originally thought you were upset about Debian taking too long to upload Ion fixes (New versions with bugfixes), but apparently it has become more than that. Could you please explain (Here or in a PM) what gets you angry about the FOSS community? Again, I'm probably missing something quite obvious.
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Postby DeanLinkous » 2007-05-08 11:21

I say we call it Tuo :D
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!
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Postby tuomov » 2007-05-08 12:30

Pobega wrote:Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I don't quite understand what you mean about the FOSS herd. I originally thought you were upset about Debian taking too long to upload Ion fixes (New versions with bugfixes), but apparently it has become more than that. Could you please explain (Here or in a PM) what gets you angry about the FOSS community? Again, I'm probably missing something quite obvious.


You may thank the Arch Herd for the license change: they were the last drop. I will not have my work corrupted with Xft patches, and still be called by the name of my work.

If the herd wants support for the pile of crap called Xft in something called Ion, they should fix distributions and fontconfig [1]. Until then, I'm boycotting it. But that is unlikely to happen -- no, the herd can not accept that FOSS sucks, that their mighty heroes have created a load of shit that makes life hard for those that don't go with the herd -- those who want clear crisp unblurred fonts.

And, besides, Linux (and consequently *BSD as well) is generally turning into such a clusterfuck of steaming shit [2], that I'm unlikely to be using it for much longer. And on Windows, nobody gives a rat's ass whether the software is FOSS or not.

Any reasonable distributor that simply wants to distribute supported versions of my software instead of (silent) forks and ancient unsupported versions, should have no problems with the additional terms. But Debian has never been reasonable.

---

It's a sad state of affairs that you actually need to add such terms, because people don't otherwise have the courtesy of communicating with the author how he'd like the software distributed, and instead silently fork and distribute unsupported development snapshots in megafrozen distributions.

It's a sad state of affairs when essential core software is created and adopted in the following fashion:

Developer: "I just created this crappy font system/user space device hack/whatever according to a tunnel vision, the worse-is-better fallacy, and several misjudgements."

Herd: "Oooh! Shiny! Let's adopt it!"

And once the herd is content, the ad hoc hack never gets fixed, as the fallacy would promise. GNU/Linux is a clusterfuck of such decisions.

[1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/03/17/T20_15_31/
[2]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/04/01/T19_09_22/
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Re: Renaming of Ion3 in Debian

Postby ecc » 2007-05-08 12:42

[quote="benh"]Feel free to write-in additional suggestions. If there's a really good name, I reserve the right to pick that and disregard the poll results.[/quote]

I suggest particle-man ( http://www.tmbg.org/band-info/songs/lyr ... anSTD.html )
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Postby plb » 2007-05-08 13:08

I don't think I've ever seen tuomov in a good mood :D
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Postby DeanLinkous » 2007-05-08 13:10

plb wrote:I don't think I've ever seen tuomov in a good mood :D


That IS his good mood... :lol:
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!
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