Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

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golinux
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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#61 Post by golinux »

sunrat wrote: 2021-07-18 06:05Haha, Bookmarks bar is something I really don't care for.
Why doesn't everybody like the same things? :mrgreen:
Because humans are infinitely diverse?
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#62 Post by cookie »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 06:31 Other differences aside, one is clearly full-width, the other has a bunch of blindingly-empty whiteness on either side. Notice how more content is available with less scrolling when the view isn't jammed in a 2/3 wide strip down the middle.

[...]

Yes. I know. My point is that I shouldn't have to, and that wasting so much screen space is a stupid default. I would rather like this usually-not-stupid board to have an equally not-stupid default theme.
If one wants a narrower view, one can just resize the browser window, same as it's been done for decades. If I then maximise said window I expect the content to respect it, not be limited to some arbitrary "max width".
The latter, again, smacks of a theme designed for mobile first.
Think I understand your concern. I don't think, however, it is right to label the default theme as "stupid default". W3C styling guide says:
A line of text shouldn’t be longer than 80 characters.
The hard-coded "max-width" suggests theme authors were targeting similar value, but maybe haven't accounted for HiDPI screens. It has nothing to do with the "mobile first".
steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 06:31 The pre-"upgrade" default theme was full-width, why should I have to jump through hoops to get back to that?
Jumping is positive for your cardiovascular performance and decreases blood pressure :)

On the serious note: I think it is safe to follow the advice of roughly 80 characters per line and allow users to configure further if they want to. Some are using tiling WMs, others use more traditional ones. Some, like you, might prefer longer lines and others want a "focus mode".
steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 06:31 What's wrong with prepending [SOLVED] or [CLOSED] to the thread title, same as we've been doing forever?
Nothing is wrong, but a lot can be improved:
  1. Non-ambiguety. [SOLVED], [CLOSED], [FIXED], [DONE] - all might refer to the same state of the thread, but make search less deterministic.
  2. Mental effort. Scroll up, edit first post, use the correct prefix... All can be replaced with the "Close" button that adds the correct label and closes the topic.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#63 Post by cookie »

Separately:
  • Would be great to have @mentions. Example: I want to call for @golinux attention. I just mention their login and they are notified.
  • Was it ever considered to switch from the generally good phpBB to some "next-gen" platform? Say Discourse or Forem (what is powering dev.to).

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#64 Post by steve_v »

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:49 A line of text shouldn’t be longer than 80 characters.
For one, that recommendation comes from a time when 80 columns was a standard width for punch cards, and later for CRT terminals. What relevance it has today is a mystery to me.
For another, that's why there's a [return] key on every keyboard.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:49The hard-coded "max-width" suggests theme authors were targeting similar value, but maybe haven't accounted for HiDPI screens. It has nothing to do with the "mobile first".
It's not just line-length limits for text, It's a width limit for everything, and it goes so far as to truncate things that have no need of being truncated.

Like this, which I mentioned earlier:

Code: Select all

Re: Debian 10 "buster" 
releas…
by sunrat	View the latest post
27 Sep 2020, 11:26
Why is that title split into two lines and pointlessly truncated? You tell me. There should be plenty of width to display "Debian 10 "buster" released" on that page.
The only reason I can think of for jamming everything into a narrow little column in the middle, is so it looks nice on a narrow little screen without needing to dynamically resize the layout (much)...
Or perhaps because about 50% of people using iphones apparently don't know about punctuation or line-breaks, but IME auto-wrapping just encourages this asinine behaviour.

I'm open to alternative explanations, but the old 80-column "limit" isn't it. It's doubly not it, as the point text is auto-wrapped in that theme is more like 150 columns anyway.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:49Some, like you, might prefer longer lines and others want a "focus mode".
Providing "focus mode" and other such trendy things is, IMO, a job for the web browser or the window manager.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:49 [*] Non-ambiguety. [SOLVED], [CLOSED], [FIXED], [DONE] - all might refer to the same state of the thread, but make search less deterministic.
[*] Mental effort. Scroll up, edit first post, use the correct prefix... All can be replaced with the "Close" button that adds the correct label and closes the topic.
Whatever floats your boat, as far as auto-adding to the title. I don't even care if it's javascript, so long as the site still works properly in a text-mode browser too.
I'm not so keen on auto-closing the topic though, I can think of several situations where someone other than the OP might benefit from a "solved" question remaining open to further posts.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:59 [*] Would be great to have @mentions. Example: I want to call for @golinux attention. I just mention their login and they are notified.
Absolutely. That's actually a useful feature.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:59 [*] Was it ever considered to switch from the generally good phpBB to some "next-gen" platform? Say Discourse or Forem (what is powering dev.to).
Oh hell no. Many times no.
I can handle the likes of discourse, with its dynamic-loading pointless-animation-slinging avatar-filled insanity, for all of about 20 seconds. It's horrific.

If FDN goes "next gen", I'll be going "elsewhere-gen" post-haste.

Anyhow, we should probably stop arguing here, as I expect the whole lot can be summed up with "I liked things fine the way they were, you like features found on the aforementioned "next-gen" boards".
I doubt we're going to agree any time soon.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#65 Post by cookie »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 10:34 For one, that recommendation comes from a time when 80 columns was a standard width for punch cards, and later for CRT terminals. What relevance it has today is a mystery to me.
For another, that's why there's a [return] key on every keyboard.
I don't think this is because of the old terminals, but rather because of how human perceive written text :) Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length

Also, you can do a test - pick-up a random, non-technical book from the shelf and count the characters/words per line.
steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 10:34 Like this, which I mentioned earlier:

Code: Select all

Re: Debian 10 "buster" 
releas…
by sunrat	View the latest post
27 Sep 2020, 11:26
Why is that title split into two lines and pointlessly truncated? You tell me. There should be plenty of width to display "Debian 10 "buster" released" on that page.
I agree. This looks like an error, "Re: Debian 10 "buster" release" is only 31 characters long.

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 10:34 I'm not so keen on auto-closing the topic though, I can think of several situations where someone other than the OP might benefit from a "solved" question remaining open to further posts.
I was not suggesting auto-closing, only the manual one. On the 2nd thought, you are right, simply labelling threads as "done" should be sufficient.
steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 10:34 Oh hell no. Many times no.
I can handle the likes of discourse, with its dynamic-loading pointless-animation-slinging avatar-filled insanity, for all of about 20 seconds. It's horrific.

If FDN goes "next gen", I'll be going "elsewhere-gen" post-haste.

Anyhow, we should probably stop arguing here, as I expect the whole lot can be summed up with "I liked things fine the way they were, you like features found on the aforementioned "next-gen" boards".
I doubt we're going to agree any time soon.
I am all up for a board that functions without JavaScript, but there are not many around. Don't take it as "phpBB sucks" though. It certainly doesn't, just requires some manual work to add the useful features.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#66 Post by steve_v »

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 11:04pick-up a random, non-technical book from the shelf and count the characters/words per line.
I had a look, and it seems the least-technical paper book I have on hand right now is "the radio amateurs handbook". :P That one requires a microscope to read, so I guess the test will have to wait.

It is probably worth noting however, that books are a completely different layout to a widescreen monitor. Also this board is most definitely technical in nature.
While books do indeed break lines pretty short easy-reading, IME it's not at all common to use only two-thirds of the page-width and leave the rest completely blank (not ramming things up against the spine excepted of course).
They put something in that space - whether it's illustrations, an artistic border, splitting text up into multiple columns, or just a bigger font.
Personally I'd be a bit upset if I bought a fat paperback only to find 1/3 of it is blank paper.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 11:04This looks like an error, "Re: Debian 10 "buster" release" is only 31 characters long.
It does, doesn't it. Better yet, "releas..." is actually longer than "released". :roll:
OTOH, if the overall layout was full-width and the preview column wasn't jammed up against one side quite so hard to make that work... Most post titles wouldn't have to be truncated at all.

cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 11:04I am all up for a board that functions without JavaScript, but there are not many around.
IMO it's still valuable to be able to use this board from a text-mode browser, as I'd far prefer the use of lynx and wgetpaste when X borkage occurs to posting crooked multi-megabyte phone photos of the screen.
Plus every javascript-only discussion board I have ever used is both horribly slow and horribly janky, but that's probably more a matter of laziness and the general internet-obesity epidemic.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#67 Post by golinux »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-18 10:34
cookie wrote: 2021-07-18 09:59 [*] Was it ever considered to switch from the generally good phpBB to some "next-gen" platform? Say Discourse or Forem (what is powering dev.to).
Oh hell no. Many times no.
I can handle the likes of discourse, with its dynamic-loading pointless-animation-slinging avatar-filled insanity, for all of about 20 seconds. It's horrific.
+1!!! Devuan's first forum was on Discourse. UGH! It was going nowhere. A couple of us set up an alternate option on FluxBB which eventually became the "official" forum. It works quite well and users seem to really like it. Less is always more . . .
steve_v wrote: If FDN goes "next gen", I'll be going "elsewhere-gen" post-haste.
But aren't we both there already? :mrgreen:
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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#68 Post by steve_v »

golinux wrote: 2021-07-18 12:41Less is always more
Yup. It sure is.
golinux wrote: 2021-07-18 12:41 But aren't we both there already? :mrgreen:
To be fair, I only really came for some archaeology (Etch on a 486). Then I decided to stick around for the newschool-vs-oldschool BBS bunfight when the thing changed under me :D

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#69 Post by esp7 »

Finally some love injected in our good ol' forum :mrgreen: I like the new flat board style being mainly grey'ish with a slight touch of color. It would be perfection if orange would be replaced by pink to be close to our Debian logo 8) And if possible, reducing the default font size a little bit of the flat board style.
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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#70 Post by wizard10000 »

Wow. I like the new theme that looks like the old theme - thanks, donald :)
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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#71 Post by donald »

wizard10000 wrote: 2021-07-20 14:18 Wow. I like the new theme that looks like the old theme - thanks, donald :)
The consensus seemed to gravitate to the older full screen style, so we changed it recently. @esp7 some of the other styles are still available if you like one of them better.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#72 Post by donald »

The Forum Guidelines have been updated, while not much has changed in modernizing them it would be wise to be familiar with them: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=149781

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#73 Post by steve_v »

Fort those who can't be bothered fishing around in the wayback machine, the main change to the forum guidelines (besides minor reorganisation / rewording) is the addition of this section:
The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
- Several direct interactions from the moderation team
- Being discourteous to other users on a consistent basis
- Being disruptive on the forums
It seems we now have an official "be nice or we'll ban you" rule...

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#74 Post by donald »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-24 05:52 Fort those who can't be bothered fishing around in the wayback machine, the main change to the forum guidelines (besides minor reorganisation / rewording) is the addition of this section:
The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
- Several direct interactions from the moderation team
- Being discourteous to other users on a consistent basis
- Being disruptive on the forums
It seems we now have an official "be nice or we'll ban you" rule...
Yes it was very much needed, but that entire section has been updated for more specific items:

The following WILL get your post EDITED or REMOVED and may have your account locked:
...
The following might get your post/thread LOCKED:
...
The following WILL get your post/thread REMOVED and your account warned or banned:
...
The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
...

No more spam thread, just the report button. Other Operating Systems threads are addressed, and most recent account deletion requests.

Most of it brings us in line with standard online behaviors, the rest guides the moderation staff and the users so that all of us are on the same page...no grey areas. At least we hope. :)

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#75 Post by oswaldkelso »

I seriously didn't understand what you just said.
Yes it was very much needed, but that entire section has been updated for more specific items:

The following WILL get your post EDITED or REMOVED and may have your account locked:
...
The following might get your post/thread LOCKED:
...
The following WILL get your post/thread REMOVED and your account warned or banned:
...
The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
...

No more spam thread, just the report button. Other Operating Systems threads are addressed, and most recent account deletion requests.

Most of it brings us in line with standard online behaviors, the rest guides the moderation staff and the users so that all of us are on the same page...no grey areas. At least we hope. :)
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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#76 Post by donald »

oswaldkelso wrote: 2021-07-25 00:20 I seriously didn't understand what you just said.
Yes it was very much needed, but that entire section has been updated for more specific items:

The following WILL get your post EDITED or REMOVED and may have your account locked:
...
The following might get your post/thread LOCKED:
...
The following WILL get your post/thread REMOVED and your account warned or banned:
...
The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
...

No more spam thread, just the report button. Other Operating Systems threads are addressed, and most recent account deletion requests.

Most of it brings us in line with standard online behaviors, the rest guides the moderation staff and the users so that all of us are on the same page...no grey areas. At least we hope. :)
The ...'s shows the changes that were made (if the viewer read the updated guidelines). I thought it was too much to quote but here you are:

Old version:

Lavene wrote: 2006-12-12 06:38 Before you start using Debian User Forums, please observe the following guidelines:
  1. Do not cross post. Posting the same topic in more than one category only creates confusion and makes it hard to keep track on the various replies. Double posts will be locked.
  2. Be descriptive. Use a meaningful headline and try to make your question as clear as possible. Include as much information as possible such as what Debian branch you are using, error messages, what you did that may have caused the problem etc. This greatly increase the chances of getting useful help.
  3. Be patient. Not everyone knows everything and not everyone is online all the time. If you don't get a reply chances are that no one is online that knows the answer at the moment. Do not 'bump' your questions just because there have been a few hours with no reply.
  4. Do not post a reply to obvious SPAM. If the forums are getting severely spammed and no moderators are online please use the spam reporting thread or send an e-mail to team@forums.debian.net
  5. Be polite. Remember that the skill level of the forum members ranges from the absolute beginner to the very seasoned Linux user and what might be obvious to you might be very hard to understand for others. It's OK to point someone to other resources or suggest means of learning but do so politely; 'RTFM' has no place on this board.
  6. Do not engage in flame wars. Threads that evolve into flaming will be locked. If you feel attacked; be the better person and ignore it. The moderators are not omnipresent, so if you feel some actions need to be taken please e-mail the moderator team on team@forums.debian.net
  7. Stay on topic. Sometimes threads morph into something completely off topic, this is unavoidable when a bunch of people communicate. However, try to limit the off topic discussions to the off topic category. Long off topic discussions in other categories might get moved or locked.
    Discussions in "Off topic" should still be in the spirit of this board, that is related to Linux/ Computers/ Software etc. Political, religious or racial discussions do not belong on this board.
    Avoid 'thread hijacking'. Unless your question is directly related to the thread's topic, start a new one.
  8. As a rule we do not accept commercial content. If you'd like to offer your Debian related services for money or you are offering a paid job please e-mail team@forums.debian.net first and it will be considered on a case by case basis.
  9. The language on this board is primarily English but we do not exclude people with little or no English. When replying to posts in other languages please include an English translation. It's a good idea to help non-English speakers find resources in their language.
    A forum is a means of written communication so make sure your posts are as readable as possible. That means: Use capital letters and punctuation, and use the formatting features of the forum wisely in order to make your post attractive. Try to avoid 'l33t speak', 'chatspeak,' and 'SMS language'.
    There is no need to apologize for poor English skills. We have users from all over the world and trying your best is more than adequate.
  10. Moderators might move your thread to a more suitable category (for instance from 'General Discussion' to 'General Questions'). This is no cause for alarm and a shadow topic, linked directly to the new location, will always be left at the original location.
  11. If you feel like your post/ thread has been locked, edited or even removed in error please contact the moderator team via e-mail at team@forums.debian.net.
  12. Summary
    The following might get your post EDITED:
    - Profanities
    - Links to inappropriate websites

    The following might get your post/ thread LOCKED
    - Flaming/ personal attacks
    - Obvious trolling
    - Thread has wandered way off topic
    - Cross posting

    The following might get your post REMOVED
    - Advertising/ Spamming
    - Obviously racist/ sexist/ hateful content
    - Obviously political/ religious content
    - Obvious pornographic content
Thanks
Admin and moderator team
forums.debian.net

Edit 10.18.08: #4 Spam reporting

New Version:
4D696B65 wrote: 2021-07-23 23:07 Before you start using Debian User Forums, please observe the following guidelines:
  1. Do not cross post. Posting the same topic in more than one category only creates confusion and makes it hard to keep track on the various replies. Double posts will be locked.
  2. Be descriptive. Use a meaningful headline and try to make your question as clear as possible. Include as much information as possible such as what Debian branch you are using, error messages, what you did that may have caused the problem etc. This greatly increase the chances of getting useful help.
  3. Be patient. Not everyone knows everything and not everyone is online all the time. If you don't get a reply chances are that no one is online that knows the answer at the moment. Do not 'bump' your questions just because there have been a few hours with no reply.
  4. Do not post a reply to obvious SPAM. Please use the report button and a member of the moderation team will attend to the post or user.
  5. Be polite. Remember that the skill level of the forum members ranges from the absolute beginner to the very seasoned Linux user and what might be obvious to you might be very hard to understand for others. It's OK to point someone to other resources or suggest means of learning but do so politely; 'RTFM' has no place on this board.
  6. Do not engage in flame wars. Threads that evolve into flaming will be locked. If you feel attacked; be the better person and ignore it. The moderators are not omnipresent, so if you feel some actions need to be taken please e-mail the moderator team on team@forums.debian.net
  7. Stay on topic. Sometimes threads morph into something completely off topic, this is unavoidable when a bunch of people communicate. However, try to limit the off topic discussions to the off topic category. Long off topic discussions in other categories might get moved or locked.
    Discussions in "Off topic" should still be in the spirit of this board, that is related to Linux/ Computers/ Software etc. Political, religious or racial discussions do not belong on this board.
    Avoid 'thread hijacking'. Unless your question is directly related to the thread's topic, start a new one.
  8. As a rule we do not accept commercial content.
  9. This is primarily a Debian Operating System forum. While we are aware that Debian has many derivatives, some of them vary greatly in how they function, as such, threads about derivatives or other Operating Systems may not find solutions from users here who are based strictly on the Debian O/S. Therefore, those thread requests may be removed or shifted to the offtopic section at the moderators discretion. It may be best to seek solutions for derivatives and other Operating Systems on their own native forums.
  10. The language on this board is primarily English but we do not exclude people with little or no English. When replying to posts in other languages please include an English translation. It's a good idea to help non-English speakers find resources in their language.
    A forum is a means of written communication so make sure your posts are as readable as possible. That means: Use capital letters and punctuation, and use the formatting features of the forum wisely in order to make your post attractive. Try to avoid 'l33t speak', 'chatspeak,' and 'SMS language'.
    There is no need to apologize for poor English skills. We have users from all over the world and trying your best is more than adequate.
  11. Moderators might move your thread to a more suitable category (for instance from 'General Discussion' to 'General Questions'). This is no cause for alarm.
  12. If you feel like your post/ thread has been locked, edited or even removed in error please contact the moderator team via e-mail at team@forums.debian.net.
  13. Occasionally we receive requests for account deletions, we are unable to comply with this request as it would massively disrupt existing threads and conversations. Also consider anything posted here (or anywhere for that matter) has already been indexed and copied by search engines. At best we suggest you make up a long gibberish password for your account and after changing it do not log in again.
  14. Moderation

    The following WILL get your post EDITED or REMOVED and may have your account locked:
    -Profanities
    -Links to inappropriate websites such as pornography, illegal software downloads, and browser exploits or hijacks

    The following might get your post/thread LOCKED:
    - Flaming/ personal attacks
    - Obvious trolling
    - A thread which has wandered way off topic
    - Cross posting the same thread in multiple areas of the forum

    The following WILL get your post/thread REMOVED and your account warned or banned:
    - Advertising/ Spamming
    - Obvious racist/ sexist/ hateful content
    - Obvious overly political/ religious content
    - Obvious pornographic content

    The following WILL have your account warned and banned:
    - Several direct interactions from the moderation team
    - Being discourteous to other users on a consistent basis
    - Being disruptive on the forums
  15. Summary
    - Please help us by following these guidelines to ensure that the community stays safe and welcome to all.


    Thanks
    Admin and moderator team
    forums.debian.net



donald wrote: 2021-07-24 23:45 No more spam thread, just the report button. Other Operating Systems threads are addressed, and most recent account deletion requests.

Most of it brings us in line with standard online behaviors, the rest guides the moderation staff and the users so that all of us are on the same page...no grey areas. At least we hope. :)
#4 changed to reflect there is no more spam thread, just use the report button.
#9 (NEW!) Addresses other Operating Systems
#13 (NEW!) Addresses user account deletion requests.
And some minor language clean up.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#77 Post by steve_v »

Right... It's changed again since I posted that snippet.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#78 Post by donald »

steve_v wrote: 2021-07-25 01:39 Right... It's changed again since I posted that snippet.
There was only one change since it was posted, I mentioned it directly:
donald wrote: 2021-07-24 23:45... and most recent account deletion requests.
Either way it's a good idea to view the guidelines every once in a while, while this is a major change to it it's unlikely to have further unless something needs to be addressed. If so we will make note of it in this thread so that everyone is aware of the addition/change.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#79 Post by arzgi »

I think notifications are a bit problematic. I have gotten notifications from members I have tried to help.
Especially new members think that is enough, but the thread is not marked solved, which would be clearer for the community.

Over the years i have been asking the authors of the thread to mark them solved dozens times.

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Re: Forum and server updates - Moving, fixes, and new admins.

#80 Post by steve_v »

arzgi wrote: 2021-07-28 14:54 Over the years i have been asking the authors of the thread to mark them solved dozens times.
At least the inability to follow basic instructions and unwillingness to spend 10 seconds to help the rest of the community allows us to identify help vampires early.

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