Very depressed

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GarryRicketson
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Very depressed

#1 Post by GarryRicketson »

The new release of Debian 9 has seemed to resulted in several forum members
being very upset, not happy with it, also they seem to be very unhappy with the
forum, this has triggered a very heavy depression , , but any way,... in this thread
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... ow#p648264
I was told to GTFO, I did not know what that means, so I did a search .
It is not the first time, someone has said something along the same lines.
But this time it made me think, and sad.
I have been eagerly trying to not only help on this forum, by checking regularly
for spam, but also encourage people to learn how to solve their problems,
sometimes, but not as much because my tech skills are limited, but sometimes
I do actually know the answer, or where to find it.
To try to avoid a long post, in a nut shell;
If a lot of other forum members and administration also feel the same, and don't want me here, I will step out, no big deal.
If I am welcome, and people feel I am of use, I am also happy to continue trying
to help any way I can,...
So any way, nobody needs to be so rude as to say GTFO,... all it really would take is if a admin tells me "we don't really need you, and it would be better to leave",... no big deal, nor need to ban, or anything.
So I guess that is about it, my wife is calling me, and also I do have other things
to do as well.
Thank you for any feed back
P.S. Since the person that told me GTFO, has been a member here much longer then me, I am assuming they are "brilliant" and have every right to tell me to leave, but just don't know how to be polite.
In any event no hard feelings, and the depression will get better , it all ways does.

kopper
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Re: Very depressed

#2 Post by kopper »

I don't think that you need to take it personally if a frustrated individual takes his angst out on you. You had good points in your last post in topic about challenges in Debian development regarding the lack of volunteer work. I'm not saying there wasn't good points on both sides, but there's certainly a better way to go about it than GTFO.

Then there's of course the kind who has a need to validate their lack of skills or whatnot with others' assumed incompetence. It's easier than picking up the shovel and start working. :D I don't think this is the case in this particular situation but as a general note towards modern online(?) behavior.
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roseway
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Re: Very depressed

#3 Post by roseway »

I can never understand why people can't discuss things they disagree about without being abusive. I don't support the view that this was just a "frustrated individual taking out his angst on you". In my view this was a thoroughly nasty thing to say to another human being, whatever the circumstances that led up to it.

I hope Garry will stay, because although I don't always agree with him, he always gives me the impression of trying to put forward a reasonable case.
Eric

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VentGrey
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Re: Very depressed

#4 Post by VentGrey »

It always happens with new releases, not only in Debian but on guys like Ubuntu or Mint every point release is "the worst" release ever, maybe we should create another Debian branch so it will be:
oldoldstable --> oldstable --> worst release --> stable --> Extended support Worst release --> Testing --> unstable
I would exchange everything I know in exchange for half of what I don't.

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golinux
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Re: Very depressed

#5 Post by golinux »

So sorry to hear that Garry. I know that you just want the best for the users of this forum. I can sympathize from the months that the dev1galaxy.org forum has been up and running. It's constant work and stressful to keep track of things.

That being said . . . the quality of this forum has declined to an almost unrecognizable state from what it was when I first joined. Just compare the quality of content here and on the Devuan forum. It's like night and day even with the social banter and occasional dysfunction mixed in. Seems there has been a 'brain drain' on this forum and Debian in general.

If you decide to turn Linux into Windows it will end up being just that and with users who are equally as clueless. The systemd maneuver could well be compared to Redmond's directive of "embrace, extend, extinguish". Now Debian is reaping the fruit what that foolhardy decision set in motion.

Unfortunately, you are just collateral damage in the decline . . .
May the FORK be with you!

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VentGrey
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Re: Very depressed

#6 Post by VentGrey »

How about we implement a RTFM policy?
(I remember myself bein a newb xD and asked stupid questions here so it is for future generation's sake)
I would exchange everything I know in exchange for half of what I don't.

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golinux
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Re: Very depressed

#7 Post by golinux »

VentGrey wrote:How about we implement a RTFM policy?
(I remember myself bein a newb xD and asked stupid questions here so it is for future generation's sake)
That only works if the documentation is up to date.
May the FORK be with you!

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Hallvor
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Re: Very depressed

#8 Post by Hallvor »

For some reason this reminds me of the Debian Uncyclopedia article:
Debian IRC support[edit]
The joke is the title^ Debianees are also known for their friendly and supportive attitude towards Debian newbies.

debian_newb has joined #debian_support
<debian_newb> can someone help me to set up firewall on my new debian box?
<teH_DeBIAN_1337_H4x0r> OMFG U THINK i HAVE TIME TO HELP SOME STUPID NEWBS. RTFM.
<dEB14N_4_LIF3> LOL UR TOTAL N00b. RTFM u f4g. go kill ur self.
<dbian_RULLZZZ0r> RTFM newb. come back when u haw3 sum skillz.
<debinnzzz> Go Uze windoz or sumthing ROFLOLOOLOLL!!1!1111oneeleven1one!
Debianees will only answer your inquiry, however, if it is worded in a proper polite way. Here is a proper, polite way to ask for tech support.

OMG! DEBIAN IS SO PATHETIC! IT CAN'T ________, BUT WINDOWS CAN _____ JUST BY CLICKING _______!
Rushing to defend their precious Linux, they will give the most descriptive, polite, useful information possible. If you use "normal" manners though, you will most likely get flamed, insulted, and receive at least 10 viruses by email. All of which will be written in "1337", for no appearent reason. Your IP will be traced, and eventually your Linux OS will be hijacked and destroyed. In some cases your CPU might melt from having to handle so much hacking by insecure "Debianees".
:lol:

One a more serious note, don't let random people on the Internet ruin your day. Out of a hundred prople, there will be a few assholes among them. Just ignore them. They will reap what they sow in life, like everyone else.
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GarryRicketson
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Re: Very depressed

#9 Post by GarryRicketson »

golinux wrote:
VentGrey wrote:How about we implement a RTFM policy?
(I remember myself bein a newb xD and asked stupid questions here so it is for future generation's sake)
That only works if the documentation is up to date.
Thanks every one, it is encouraging to read these comments.
On the RTFM, policy, actually the forum guidelines, say we do not want
to use that term.
from: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10653
It's OK to point someone to other resources or suggest means of learning but do so politely; 'RTFM' has no place on this board.
And Golinux has a very good point, about the documentation needs to be
up to date, this is a big problem with ,especially Debian 9,... the Debian 8
documentation as well, is just barely starting to catch up.
I do realize as well, any argument has 2 sides, and there are things about me
that could be improved, this is easy to say, but actually changing, well "old habits" can be difficult to change.
But I do think I need to realize most people know they could do a search
and do, if they don't for what ever reason, telling them to do a search just seems
to antagonize them.
by Hallvor » One a more serious note, don't let random people on the Internet ruin your day. Out of a hundred people , there will be a few assholes among them. Just ignore them. They will reap what they sow in life, like everyone else.
This is true, and really, I enjoy the forum, and enjoy helping with it. Generally
I do ignore the ones that annoy me the most, how ever even members that have been around a long time, have been known to try to slip in either spam, or some
really unacceptable links, just a day or 2 ago we had one try to sneak in a porn site type link, in a old thread.
After all said and done, I don't really have any plans of "just leaving", just because a few get mean or rude, of course the admins, my "bosses" have
the final say on that, but generally speaking they are polite, and have given
constructive advice, in the past when need be.
The new release has created a bit of stress for many people, the mail lists
show this, as well as here on the forum.
Any way, we'll just have to see how things go,..
Thanks for the comments and feed back. It is encouraging.

deborah-and-ian
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Re: Very depressed

#10 Post by deborah-and-ian »

Gary, I'm very happy with your contribution here. Don't mind the haters. Thanks for everything!

Also, I'm very happy with Stretch. It works better for me than Jessie.
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Re: Very depressed

#11 Post by ticojohn »

Garry, don't let people bring you down. To me, all of the negativity here, and other places, is a growing sign of loss of civility and a decline in civilized society. It can be really depressing especially for people that were raised to be civil and compassionate. Keep on keepin' on bro!
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

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HuangLao
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Re: Very depressed

#12 Post by HuangLao »

Garry, don't sweat the small stuff or the small people.

A quote from Lao tzu...
"Little people are only capable of one thing remaining little and constantly scheming against and trying to bring down 'higher' people."
and from some random redditor (is that a real word?):
Image

your balance at Debian Forum is quite high, let the little people go........

Bulkley
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Re: Very depressed

#13 Post by Bulkley »

roseway wrote:I can never understand why people can't discuss things they disagree about without being abusive. I don't support the view that this was just a "frustrated individual taking out his angst on you". In my view this was a thoroughly nasty thing to say to another human being, whatever the circumstances that led up to it.

I hope Garry will stay, because although I don't always agree with him, he always gives me the impression of trying to put forward a reasonable case.
+1. Garry has done an astounding job. I couldn't do it; don't have the patience.

Helping someone troubleshoot doesn't always mean having the perfect answer. Trouble shooting is often more about hunting for the right questions and suggesting various things to test. It can also involve suggesting an OP study various documents. Unfortunately, many users simply having no patience for troubleshooting will accept only the simple answer.

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pylkko
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Re: Very depressed

#14 Post by pylkko »

I know how you feel! I also decided some weeks a go to stop helping people here after people generally accepted/allowed one poster to call others "assholes" among other things. That's not OK. What kind of place is like that?

Dai_trying
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Re: Very depressed

#15 Post by Dai_trying »

I know I don't always agree with everything that you type Gary, but there is no reason at all for you to even think that your input is not welcome, just look at your previous posts and see the users you have helped on one way or another.

My main issue with this forum is the lack of help for new or inexperienced users, and this is not a dig at you, there are quite a few "helpers" in this forum who would rather just tell people they haven't done enough research or googling to merit giving an answer, and then writing an almost essay type reply when the answer is quite simple and would take a couple of sentences at most, but it would seem three or four paragraphs of chastising someone is more enlightening to them??

Just my opinion but a short and sweet answer to a newbie and maybe a couple of informative links would yield a lot more positive attitudes and less aggressive replies.

I know some will think that this is considered hand-holding, but I just see it as answering a question, and let's face it a lot of the questions that end up with aggressive replies, name calling and general bad attitude are usually pretty straight forward to an experienced Linux (Debian) user.

And with regards to the name-calling, isn't that against the forum rules? (Profanities/personal attacks/hateful content, see below) if it happens it should be reported and dealt with accordingly, I have defended users in the past for being not happy with the "go do your research" type answer and then they call someone or use what I would consider inappropriate language and have been left wishing I hadn't said anything, but the fact remains the situation would likely not have arisen with a straight forward answer.
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The following might get your post/ thread LOCKED
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Danielsan
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Re: Very depressed

#16 Post by Danielsan »

I am sorry for what happened to Garry however sometimes people get angry for some reason, anyway the problem is the Debian wiki which is the real weakness of the entire ecosystem.

For example regarding systemd the wiki debian has about 326 words and the arch wiki 777, it doesn't pretend to be very scientific but others distro put a lot of emphasis also in the wiki but not Debian so even the RTFM becomes useless.
Last edited by Danielsan on 2017-06-29 13:05, edited 1 time in total.

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GarryRicketson
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Re: Very depressed

#17 Post by GarryRicketson »

Edited: there was another post while writing and it is on a new page:
Postby Dai_trying » 2017-06-28 15:36
I know I don't always agree with everything that you type Gary, but there is no reason at all for you to even think that your input is not welcome, just look at your previous posts and see the users you have helped on one way or another.
My main issue with this forum is the lack of help for new or inexperienced users, and this is not a dig at you, there are quite a few "helpers" in this forum who would rather just tell people they haven't done enough research or googling to merit giving an answer, and then writing an almost essay type reply when the answer is quite simple and would take a couple of sentences at most, but it would seem three or four paragraphs of chastising someone is more enlightening to them?? ---snip----
You are right on what your saying, and actually it has been suggested to me
to try making the replies shorter, and especially when I really don't know
the answer myself, but when I see comments like this:
It is a pack of software piled up by stupid incompetents that don't even know what they're doing.

It can and does really irk me, and it does not help the person looking for a solution either.
I am can type pretty fast , not close to some secretaries I know, but never the
less it is really east to write what turns into a long page in just a couple of minuets
or less.
by Dai_trying »Just my opinion but a short and sweet answer to a newbie and maybe a couple of informative links would yield a lot more positive attitudes and less aggressive replies.
I think you are right, and that is some thing I can keep trying to improve on my
end.
thanks
PS. Yes, the wiki really needs a lot of work, it would be nice if , instead of complaining here, and saying things like the above, about "stupid incompetents", it would be nice if some more competent members, that understand some of the issues with systemd, would take the few minuets it
takes to register, etc. It is for Debian users, and the Debian users can edit it,
etc.
Those that simply do not want to use a OS with systemd, really need to just forget about trying to convince the Debian team to not use it, they are set on
that, in spite of the problems. That is where it really is best for everybody if
those that prefer something else, IE; system V , or other,...
Being that systemd is still relatively new, there still is a lack of good detailed documentation, and new problems seem to keep popping up.
Calling the people trying to solve those problems "stupid incompetents ",
only serves to discourage them from trying to fix the problems and provide
the users with a reliable OS.
Thank you all for the feed back , it is encouraging.

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alan stone
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Re: Very depressed

#18 Post by alan stone »


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Lysander
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Re: Very depressed

#19 Post by Lysander »

For a long time I have called the internet "the idiot's playground". Years of going to forums, imageboards and chatrooms has given me quite a thick skin with regard to offensive user posts. It has also shown me that the majority of user comments and content on the internet are trivial and essentially worthless.

For instance the other day on here someone called me a "moron" in another thread - I did my best to rise above it and give them an informative, productive response which supported my reasons for saying what I said. Poetic justice fulfilled, the topic was locked as a result of the poster's comment.

When people make comments like GTFO, moron etc etc etc it does nothing but shows the internet how immature they are. I guarantee you that no-one with a brain reading user comments like that thinks "haha he showed him" or "what a creative and risible put-down". No, they only think the poster acted childishly.

Your work here is very much appreciated. And don't concern yourself with people who make such comments, you're giving them more time than they deserve.

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acewiza
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Re: Very depressed

#20 Post by acewiza »

You just need to occasionally remind yourself who you're dealing with on the Internet: The PUBLIC. They suck. You don't. :D
Nobody would ever ask questions If everyone possessed encyclopedic knowledge of the man pages.

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