New Update Is Counter-Productive

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jakoline1
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New Update Is Counter-Productive

#1 Post by jakoline1 »

The forum is now showing last edit date and total number of edits beneath posts, this is not ideal for non-natives like myself who may need to correct grammar or misspellings, many times I'd remove or add new pieces of information while waiting for the thread owner to reply, and I only announce my edits when they need to be announced.

This new update is counter-productive and feels like harassment, when a moderator sees a user abusing that edit button to manipulate other users, then they can intervene, other than that it should not be shown like that.

Please revert back.

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Re: New Updaete Is Counter-Productive

#2 Post by donald »

On one hand you have to view anything that you commit to the Internet as an active archive, meaning your original comments will be viewed/archived/read/preserved. On the other hand is your control over what we can term as "Your lasting impression": I.E. any corrections, addendums, or additional content as the latter version of your committed archive. Most people don't look for or care that your original content was edited or had information added to it outside of a dynamic current event and even then history only records what was already written/captured.

Second, I think most forums show when an edit has taken place, most forum software gives the author a minute to edit prior to showing the 'edited' tags to a post. We upgraded certainly but I do not believe we made any changes to the edit system showing when an edit was made. Moderators/Admins will never edit posts here as part of the rules, however when and if the circumstance merits it it may occur and that moderator/admin will leave a comment inside of the post to indicate what was changed.

In the interests of transparency, real transparency not news or political transparency, showing edits by original authors is not a bad thing by any means. To your point if the original poster is abusing the system by changing the original post to troll or make fellow posters the fool, the moderation team will absolutely take action.

edit1 check
edit2 check

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#3 Post by arochester »

I just edited you post (2 tiny spellings/typos) to see what would happen. I can't see that there is any report...

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#4 Post by jakoline1 »

donald wrote:you have to view anything that you commit to the Internet as an active archive, meaning your original comments will be viewed/archived/read/preserved.
No not necessarily, not everything I do will be logged, and even if so, not every log will be kept.
donald wrote:I think most forums show when an edit has taken place
That doesn't make it a good thing.
donald wrote:most forum software gives the author a minute to edit prior to showing the 'edited' tags to a post
What if I left for a while or shutdown my machine then next morning I spotted a typo?
arochester wrote:I just edited you post (2 tiny spellings/typos)
Pretty sure my post didn't have any.

This update seems to be only effective in the General Questions section for now, or maybe it's only effecting me, the same way you see the like button (to thank someone) in some places but not in others.

Here is one occurrence (image)

Image

And here is another (image)

Image

Transparency is not a rule of thumb, showing my edits isn't helping me to make the most out of this forum nor it's helping me provide my maximum helping capabilities to other users, and the fact that this new feature was only added now and doesn't seem to be effecting anyone but me, after I made extensive use of it, makes it look like a harassment.

If the person responsible for this update is seeing this, please revert back.
Last edited by jakoline1 on 2021-07-19 02:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#5 Post by cds60601 »

I personally don't see an issue with how many times a person edits a post.
The fact is that it does help to minimize nefarious intentions (call me silly that way).
I would much rather see an "audit trail" of posts that shows the original and clear intention of a post without it later being modified (and hidden - as it seems you would like that to be) to show something else no matter how you view it.

I'm all for audit trails - The way I read your claim about harassment; perhaps you might rethink and think through you intentions when posting.
It's really not much different when you were in school (assumed) and you handed in your work and the teacher grades for misspellings. Did you feel harassed back then?
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#6 Post by Hallvor »

You can write your post and still edit any typo within a reasonable period without any edits showing. This makes sense. You can also use the Preview button before posting to see errors/typos easier.

But if someone edits their post hours or days after their initial post, it makes sense for the sake of transparency and accountability to show that there has been edits (and what edits have been made).
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#7 Post by jakoline1 »

I disagree and I think it should not be shown. either users have the ability to edit posts or they don't, which I prefer they don't, but granting them this ability then showing information about edits is wrong.

Edit: it's really weird how you're all thanking each other.
Last edited by jakoline1 on 2021-07-19 03:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#8 Post by donald »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-19 02:04 I disagree and I think it should not be shown. either users have the ability to edit posts or they don't, which I prefer they don't, but granting them this ability then showing information about edits is wrong.

Here is a post by CrackedShell: viewtopic.php?p=736407#p736407 on 2021-04-07 01:35 which shows their edits of their post. [

You joined the forums on 2021-07-05 20:49, so we can highlight that this is not a new feature.

I would surmise the feature has been in the forums software from the very first version as like the majority of user discussion software for forums that show when a post/thread has been modified. I do not think outside of online news article postings that there is any user facing medium that doesn't show when a post/thread has been modified.

For a silly example lets say that user John posts a thread about how apples are the best fruit ever.
10 replies into the thread multiple other contributors posit that oranges are the best fruit ever.
John then decides to troll and edits the original post to reflect that the word orange is a derogatory term.
Now we have a derogatory thread on the forums and everyone looks bad.

The above example is also why it's a good idea to quote the person you are talking to, so that your comments aren't taken out of context with a change.

So between the use of the edit notifications and quote system, it allows the forum to some what police itself in manners of posting fraud/trolling.

OR

John makes a thread about something.
10 posts into the thread everyone has corrected him.
John edits the original post to say whoops I was wrong please stop dogpiling me.


As Hallvor mentioned, use the preview feature prior to a submitting your post/reply and you can avoid having edit messages. But if you have to edit a post, no one will be super critical of it, it just shows you have care to detail or wanted to clarify something. :)

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#9 Post by wizard10000 »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-19 02:04Edit: it's really weird how you're all thanking each other.
I mean no disrespect - but I tested this yesterday and edited a post 12 times in five minutes without getting that banner. I regularly edit my own posts minutes or hours after I've had some time to think or do a little more research and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think editing a post is bad, I think it shows that you care about what you write and that's a good thing.

I understand that English is not your first language and that can make it a little embarrassing to have to edit posts to make sure you get the words right but I think *nobody* here believes that's a problem. I think you should be proud of being bilingual :)

I run IT service desks and work with a lot of people based in India - they work all day in a foreign language and God bless them for that because I certainly couldn't do it :)

cheers -

edit: took me a minute to figure out what you meant by everybody thanking everybody else. I think everybody (including me) is starting to use it as a "like" button :)
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#10 Post by donald »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-19 02:04
Edit: it's really weird how you're all thanking each other.
It's a new system,we just haven't announced it yet. :) It's just people agreeing with each other or understanding the other's point of view. As wizard10000 said it is pretty much a like button. I'll post about it in the forum updates thread later, but for now we just want to see how it contributes to the server load so it may stay or it may disappear.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#11 Post by wizard10000 »

donald wrote: 2021-07-19 12:02...it is pretty much a like button.
I had this really bizarre idea - I was gonna suggest changing the text from "thanks" to "likes" but after thinking about it a bit I realized that the sql gymnastics required to do that are just Not Worth The Effort.

:mrgreen:

edit: I ran a good-sized vBulletin board back in the day - I had added a like button plugin and eventually had to turn the damn thing off because users bitching about likes they didn't get or that somebody else *did* get :)
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#12 Post by donald »

wizard10000 wrote: 2021-07-19 12:34
donald wrote: 2021-07-19 12:02...it is pretty much a like button.
I had this really bizarre idea - I was gonna suggest changing the text from "thanks" to "likes" but after thinking about it a bit I realized that the sql gymnastics required to do that are just Not Worth The Effort.

:mrgreen:

edit: I ran a good-sized vBulletin board back in the day - I had added a like button plugin and eventually had to turn the damn thing off because users bitching about likes they didn't get or that somebody else *did* get :)
Indeed. To be honest, this kind of system is poised perfectly for large scale abuse and misuse with people highlighting friends and downvoting or shutting out other people. I really really like the idea though and wish to try it here but understanding that there is a lot to ask of the community to be able to utilize the feature properly. We'll see.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#13 Post by golinux »

I do no social networking. I don't own a cell phone. So I'm probably more sensitive than most to the appearance of this intrusive "feature". Why? Because as Eben Moglen noted in his presentation at re:publica in 2012, it teaches the machine (and their uberlords) about YOU! IOW . . . it is spyware. And sadly, whether you click it or not, it gathers data about your habits and goes into your "social" profile. It is rather shocking that this insidious "feature" would creep into a supposedly "free software" project. I can hopefully find a way to never have to see it by adding a custom rule. But that it is there at all is quite chilling.
Last edited by golinux on 2021-07-20 02:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#14 Post by donald »

golinux wrote: 2021-07-19 13:18 I do no social networking. I don't own a cell phone. So I'm probably more sensitive than most to the appearance of this intrusive "feature". Why? Because as Eben Moglen noted in his presentation at re:publica in 2012, it teaches the machine (and their uberlords) about YOU! IOW . . . it is spyware. And sadly, whether you click it or not, it gathers data about your habits and goes into your "social" profile. It is rather shocking that this insidious "feature" would creep into a supposedly "free software" project. I can hopefully find a way to never have to see it by adding a custom rule. But that it is there at all is quite chilling.
Weird, because peeking over at your forums where you are shown as the administrator you have tons of edits in your comments to users, so taking that into account I feel you are being disingenuous. You know what the feature does and why it is there....in fact you've explained it to your own users a few times. On record...you're trolling.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#15 Post by golinux »

donald wrote: 2021-07-19 13:34Weird, because peeking over at your forums where you are shown as the administrator you have tons of edits in your comments to users, so taking that into account I feel you are being disingenuous. You know what the feature does and why it is there....in fact you've explained it to your own users a few times. On record...you're trolling.
I was referring to the "Thanks" feature. I don't see that it serves any purpose except to boost egos, encourage mob mentality and profile users of this forum in many ways.

It takes time to refine written communication. Very few of us, like Mozart, can dash something off and get it right the first time. I really don't understand why anyone would have a problem with finding the best communication solution possible even if it takes 100 edits.
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#16 Post by jakoline1 »

golinux wrote: 2021-07-19 18:12 I really don't understand why anyone would have a problem with finding the best communication solution possible even if it takes 100 edits.
I don't understand, please explain that for me.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#17 Post by steve_v »

donald wrote: 2021-07-19 12:02 It's a new system,we just haven't announced it yet. :) It's just people agreeing with each other or understanding the other's point of view. As wizard10000 said it is pretty much a like button.
I for one don't mind a "thank" system per-se, but I'd very much prefer it didn't show any tallies in the user info panels. One says "people found this post useful", the other is ripe for facebook-esque like-farming and pointless pissing matches.
Join date, post count, and a quick look at a users past contributions works fine for estimating whether or not they have any clues, social-media style influence counters we do not need.

As for the edit thing, I edit posts all the time and AFAIK it'll only tag it if an edit was made after somebody else has posted to the thread. Being aware that a post has been edited since you replied to it and may need a re-read is valuable information.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#18 Post by jakoline1 »

donald wrote: We can highlight that this is not a new feature
Yes it is, I was browsing the forum a couple of days ago and it wasn't there.
donald wrote: John then decides to troll and edits the original post
That's why I said if someone is abusing edits to manipulate others then moderators should take action.
donald wrote: So between the use of the edit notifications and quote system, it allows the forum to some what police itself
No, because edit notifications doesn't show what changed, also too much quotes can make the topic unreadable.
wizard10000 wrote: I tested this yesterday and edited a post 12 times in five minutes without getting that banner
Exactly, it's buggy, it comes and goes, I don't what's wrong with it, maybe someone is intentionally toggling it, like they're doing with the new black theme.
wizard10000 wrote: I understand that English is not your first language and that can make it a little embarrassing to have to edit posts
I rarely edit my posts for syntax or grammar, it's usually new information or more research like you said.
donald wrote: This kind of system [the like button] is poised perfectly for large scale abuse and misuse with people highlighting friends and downvoting or shutting out other people
Agreed, OMG Ubuntu proves your theory.
golinux wrote: it [the like button] gathers data about your habits and goes into your "social" profile
I don't think it's tied to Facebook, at least not for now.
golinux wrote: I don't see that it serves any purpose except to boost egos, encourage mob mentality
Agreed, it ruined people's brains at Facebook and it's responsible for most of today's ill social behaviours.
It determines which opinions are accepted and which are not.

Bottom line is I believe BOTH edits AND thanks should be disabled, no need for new (or relatively new in case of edits) features that nobody asked for, human communication doesn't need to be re-invented. Not everything new is harmful, but this one is.

For the record, I took a stand.
Now I rest my case.

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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#19 Post by golinux »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-20 21:25
golinux wrote: it [the like button] gathers data about your habits and goes into your "social" profile
I don't think it's tied to Facebook, at least not for now.
I said nothing about Facebook. I was referring to individual users' actions which could expose their social groupings/affinities on this forum. That connects the dots in ways that I think should be avoided.

In any case, I have not yet found a way to disable/remove from view the "thanks" data or the twitchy "post preview". Perhaps these new features could be "opt-in"? Just a thought. Or maybe someone has a magic incantation to neuter those specific functions? A custom filter line for uBlock Origin would be appreciated.
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Re: New Update Is Counter-Productive

#20 Post by sunrat »

jakoline1 wrote: 2021-07-20 21:25...also too much quotes can make the topic unreadable.
8 quotes in your last post! Now we know you're trolling.
Now I rest my case.
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