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Love the spirit of this forum

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Love the spirit of this forum

#1 Post by Segfault »

I started on Usenet over 30 years ago, learned my ropes there. I have been (and still am) member of many forums. Many of them have turned into nannying members. Some have sicko authoritarian moderators who enjoy their power over regular members. Gentoo forums are good, they understand when a member posts something then he/she has made an effort, and although the policy may say all posts belong to the forum at Gentoo they do their best to honor the members ownership of posting and posts are not edited or removed casually.

Here we live in good old world. Insults are part of life (politicians have picked out certain insult types and they are building some creepy culture war on these). Here we can say to each other what we think as long as we maintain basic manners and I love this. I do not need a moderator to jump into my defense when someone turns hostile. I'm perfectly able to deal with such members myself, while still doing my best to avoid escalation and going off topic big time. Yep, there is no other forum like Debian User Forums. I hope it stays like this forever, it is like fresh air compared to other forums. :wink:
Unfortunately I cannot be much help here, my Debian was Potato and a few releases after it. I keep coming here to get this breath of fresh air and feel myself among people who stand on their own feet.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#2 Post by sunrat »

Glad you like it. We try to not be heavy-handed with moderation, unlike some forums. If users post with civility and respect, we are happy. Conspiracy theories, politics etc. are subject to closer scrutiny and generally not welcome; keep it basically about Debian, although we are not inflexible.
We also encourage users to do a little initial searching for solutions before posting. A lot of simple common issues tend to be posted multiple times.
There are 2 topics which outline the guidelines:
Forum guidelines. Please read before first post!
Please Read.. What we expect you have already Done.
Follow those and enjoy your welcome. 8) :wink:
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Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#3 Post by Diesel330 »

It's also one of the few places on the internet where UBlock Origin and Privacy Badger block nothing because there is nothing to block

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#4 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Segfault wrote: 2022-09-24 02:12 Unfortunately I cannot be much help here
I would respectfully disagree. I find your contributions to be both salient and useful. Thanks!
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#5 Post by Segfault »

Well, I have to take it all back. Apparently I did not read the forum rules thoroughly. Most forums have a dim look at homework questions and members are discouraged to answer them. Site admin Donald just taught me homework questions are OK here and I am the bad guy who deserves punishment. Same time he downgraded these forums to "below average" in my eyes as far as moderation is considered.
Besides, since the post I got warning for was made more than 10 days ago I think this is something else. I think this is a signal to go away. BTW, the warning I received does not indicate what rule I violated.

See you, guys, sometime. Maybe. For now these forums have lost allure for me.
Last edited by Segfault on 2022-10-02 11:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#6 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Segfault wrote: 2022-10-02 11:03 Site admin Donald just taught me homework questions are OK here and I am the bad guy who deserves punishment.
Would you mind sharing the message from @donald here? He's sent pathetic PMs to other community members in the past and I do think his methods need to be exposed. Transparency is a key feature of Debian, after all.

For the record the only thing I will be doing in homework threads is trolling. Copiously and without restraint. I consider it my duty as a responsible community member.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#7 Post by Segfault »

Donald.png
Donald.png (45.01 KiB) Viewed 2062 times
I'm glad I came back for a moment and saw your post. I have edited my previous post and added some details. I really was going.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#8 Post by donald »

Segfault wrote: 2022-10-02 11:03 Site admin Donald just taught me homework questions are OK here and I am the bad guy who deserves punishment.
I do not think you are a bad guy.
You voilated a clear set of rules and got called on it.
No need for this to be a bigger issue.
Head_on_a_Stick wrote: 2022-10-02 11:33 Would you mind sharing the message from @donald here? He's sent pathetic PMs to other community members in the past and I do think his methods need to be exposed. Transparency is a key feature of Debian, after all.


For the record the only thing I will be doing in homework threads is trolling. Copiously and without restraint. I consider it my duty as a responsible community member.
Message:viewtopic.php?f=30&t=152872

Rules: viewtopic.php?t=150443


A responsible community member helps not hampers the growth of the community . You can do more good by helping people when they need it.

I don't send PMs of that nature, mostly I chat with the other administrators, but move to the admin area if needed. Im very transparent.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#9 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

The linked post appears to be entirely innocuous. Which specific forum rule does it violate and why? Apologies in advance if I'm being thick here.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#10 Post by donald »

Segfault wrote: 2022-10-02 11:39 Donald.png
I'm glad I came back for a moment and saw your post. I have edited my previous post and added some details. I really was going.
You do not need to go anywhere or do anything. I just want us all to be friendly and helpful even when we have to addresses questions we feel should have been better researched.

As I said I do not think you area bad person, we are trying to change the tone here and have to enforce that.

Weird the post changed as I was replying. Its the section about RTFM.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#11 Post by Hallvor »

I reads Segfault's reply, and I personally don't think it was rude or condescending. It was impossible for anyone here to answer his questions without having telepathic gifts.

If this is the line of enforcement you want here, I suggest deleting the following post and give the OP a warning too. He has soured this open, inclusive and friendly community with his elitist RTFM advice for more than a decade.
We do have a few expectations of what you have done already to find your answer.
1) We expect that you have used Google or another search engine to find your answer.
2) That you have searched the Man pages available on your topic.
If you don't know how you may do this, open a terminal and at the prompt enter "man topic" where "topic" represents the topic you are having trouble with.
3) Lastly, that you have tried to use the forum search feature to find help on your issue.
viewtopic.php?t=47078
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#12 Post by cynwulf »

While I sympathise with Segfault and believe an infraction is harsh for that post, I don't think RTFM posts serve any useful purpose.

There was a member here some years back who posted nothing but RTFM and "google it", who might I add, basked in the adoration of many regular members. He appeared to take perverse pleasure in ridiculing others for his own gratification.

I would also suggest that far worse is regularly posted here and so far as I can tell, they get away with it.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#13 Post by donald »

I don't want to get bogged down in this thread but do want to address everyone's points since this seems to be something people want to talk about and these topics shouldn't be hidden or ignored.

For the discussion at hand and in the end the guidelines are the guidelines and there isn't much to say more on the topic. If they work for us they work, if they do not then we change or update them as we did before.
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-02 12:17 I reads Segfault's reply, and I personally don't think it was rude or condescending.
I did.
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-02 12:17 It was impossible for anyone here to answer his questions without having telepathic gifts.
Asking about securing SSH with fail2ban is a question that could be answered fairly easily but may be complex for someone who is asking (the question) about it, especially regarding some of the other means of securing a server. Iptables can be daunting, fail2ban is a great option, sshguard is another option ... and so on. Depending on the users experience they might not even understand how to ask the question.

OP: Is this well known product a valid option, here is an alternative I was thinking of applying.
User1: Do some research on your own.
User2: Response and links to other resources.
User3: Response and links to other resources.

We want the types of answers from Users 2 and User 3. User 1 saying do your own research isn't far to someone who is asking a question which is exactly what the OP was doing in the first place.
Hallvor wrote: 2022-10-02 12:17
If this is the line of enforcement you want here, I suggest deleting the following post and give the OP a warning too. He has soured this open, inclusive and friendly community with his elitist RTFM advice for more than a decade.
We do have a few expectations of what you have done already to find your answer.
1) We expect that you have used Google or another search engine to find your answer.
2) That you have searched the Man pages available on your topic.
If you don't know how you may do this, open a terminal and at the prompt enter "man topic" where "topic" represents the topic you are having trouble with.
3) Lastly, that you have tried to use the forum search feature to find help on your issue.
viewtopic.php?t=47078
It is the line in the sand. Looking over some of the older posts it seems most users here have given a RTFM answer at some point. After the administration change last year all users were suggested to read the updated/new rules which made it clear those past behaviours were no longer welcome here. These are not rules me and not for thee, these guidelines are for everyone, users, moderators, and administrators.


cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-02 14:19 While I sympathise with Segfault and believe an infraction is harsh for that post, I don't think RTFM posts serve any useful purpose.

There was a member here some years back who posted nothing but RTFM and "google it", who might I add, basked in the adoration of many regular members. He appeared to take perverse pleasure in ridiculing others for his own gratification.

I would also suggest that far worse is regularly posted here and so far as I can tell, they get away with it.
Report those posts and we will deal with them. Moderators do send PMs to members all the time about a posting style or wording in a post. There is a lot that occurs in the background but things can be missed with each staff member having different hours/time zones or time commitments, hitting the report button will definitely get the post noticed and the user made aware of the issue. If you or anyone has an issue with a mod/admin that you cannot work out send me a PM.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#14 Post by steve_v »

Segfault wrote: 2022-10-02 11:03 See you, guys, sometime. Maybe. For now these forums have lost allure for me.
Likewise.
I have been eyeing this "administration change" (and Donald's thinly-veiled intent) for the past year or so, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now that it apparently has, I'm out of here.

A spade is a spade, homework is homework, the manuals are there to be read... And simply handing over the proverbial fish does not teach anybody anything.

Segfault's "infraction" was about as minor as they come, If enforced unctuousness is the way this place is supposed to go from here, you can keep it (and the vampires it will undoubtedly attract).
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#15 Post by donald »

steve_v wrote: 2022-10-03 04:32
Segfault wrote: 2022-10-02 11:03 See you, guys, sometime. Maybe. For now these forums have lost allure for me.
Likewise.
I have been eyeing this "administration change" (and Donald's thinly-veiled intent) for the past year or so, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now that it apparently has, I'm out of here.
This is why I dislike threads like this. Lots of anger, and accusations, but very little dialogue.
steve_v wrote: 2022-10-03 04:32 A spade is a spade, homework is homework, the manuals are there to be read... And simply handing over the proverbial fish does not teach anybody anything. If enforced unctuousness is the way this place is supposed to go from here, you can keep it (and the vampires it will undoubtedly attract).
Technical/help forums desire intuitive users who can help others who ask questions with answers, resources, or point them towards such. Comments in the technical sections that got this thread started aren't part of that formula.

The guidelines are one of the tools the moderation and administration staff apply across the board, we point to it frequently in replies to users and have been doing so for some time now. I'm surprised that with all the announcements that no one clearly seemed to have read the guideline updates or responded to the update at that time. This feedback should have come a bit earlier, hopefully that will change and people will read them and stay within those guidelines.

Sorry to see you go.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#16 Post by steve_v »

donald wrote: 2022-10-03 04:51very little dialogue.
Frankly, I don't see that there's much left worthy of dialogue. I have no power to influence these new rules and new attitudes, so I see little point in discussing them.

That said;
donald wrote: 2022-10-03 04:51Technical/help forums desire intuitive users who can help others who ask questions with answers, resources, or point them towards such.
They also desire motivated users who take the time to post smart questions. IME Smart questions attract smart answers, while incredibly vague queries like the thread in question generally do not, rather they devolve into bikeshedding and endless pasting of links from search engines which the OP could have used to begin with.

What use is a technical section to future visitors when it is primarily regurgitation of things mama google provides, links to inane *tube videos, and paraphrasing of existing documentation?

Once, this board was full of smart questions and smart answers, rather effectively moderated by completely "unofficial" volunteers and variations of "try asking a smarter question" where warranted. It has been becoming less so (as well as less technical in general) for some time now, and a large number of the most knowledgeable members are already long gone.
Your reprimanding Segfault for suggesting (and rather mildly IMO) that a user should do some basic research into the concepts involved before posting is, for me at any rate, just the final straw. This board is no longer the community of hackers helping hackers (and motivated neophytes) it once was, and as such it's no longer a community I can identify with.

As for "love the spirit of this forum", I really did, and I held hope it would recover in time... Right up until you and the "new administration" arrived and started hammering on people for speaking their minds or not being nice enough.

donald wrote: 2022-10-03 04:51This feedback should have come a bit earlier, hopefully that will change and people will read them and stay within those guidelines.
So you welcome feedback on the updates, but you also expect people to adhere to them, seemingly without question or recourse... Again, why bother shouting at the weather?

Personally I don't see much difference between you telling people to go read the announcements and others telling people to go read the manuals or search the web. I remember when we were all expected to do both, and we largely policed ourselves, without your help. Perhaps I'm just old.


On the thread and post in question, "With regard to SSH security is installing Fail2ban an effective solution?" is functionally equivalent to "With regard to road safety, is wearing a bicycle helmet an effective solution?", and about as open-ended.
Safety from what? Hailstorms or velociraptors? How do you define "effective"? What about non-overhead threats? Do you actually want to think about this, or just buy a gizmo and feel secure?
As Segfault suggested, getting a useful answer to this kind of question requires an understanding of the factors involved... And once one makes the effort to acquire that, it mostly answers itself anyway.
Specific queries are of course welcome, but nebulous research topics like that one really do smell like homework and are far better served with a bit of self-directed study... And, ya know, thinking about it a bit before asking somebody to spoon-feed you a simple answer to a complex question.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#17 Post by donald »

steve_v wrote: 2022-10-03 06:09
donald wrote: 2022-10-03 04:51very little dialogue.
Frankly, I don't see that there's much left worthy of dialogue. I have no power to influence these new rules and new attitudes, so I see little point in discussing them.
I do appreciate your taking the time to articulate a response, even though we seem to have different opinions on the topic. As far as power to influence, make the changes you want to see where you are able, type out the types of threads that you want to see, apply to the moderation position, not everything has to be top down.

People had complaints about the past behavior of users/moderators/admins, to address that the guidelines were updated. Now the guidelines are being enforced and people are complain about their application. I, you, we, can't have it both ways.
steve_v wrote: 2022-10-03 06:09Personally I don't see much difference between you telling people to go read the announcements and others telling people to go read the manuals or search the web.
Touche on that point.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#18 Post by cynwulf »

steve_v wrote: 2022-10-03 06:09Once, this board was full of smart questions and smart answers, rather effectively moderated by completely "unofficial" volunteers and variations of "try asking a smarter question" where warranted.
When you joined in 2012, those days were actually long gone. A previous administration single-handedly wrecked this site and alienated half the users the year before. That admin's tag line was "no need for further discussion". We would not be having this discussion - the thread would already be locked.

This administration do converse with end users at least - the previous one looked down on them and acted as if they were doing us a huge favour keeping the forum running at all.

A balance needs to be struck here - yes Segfault's warning was heavy handed in my view, but no we don't want to return to the situation of a few years ago, where a prolific A hole was lording it here getting a perverse kick out of bullying new users around.

New users will ask stupid questions. They have the same problem at LQ and everywhere else. Reprimanding and pouring vitriol in their direction won't change a thing, as they'll be replaced by the next ill researched question in due course - and it goes on and on.

@donald

Would you consider reviewing and possibly reversing Segfault's infraction for that post? You have to take into account that the post was in no way malicious, it was "in the spirit of the forum", in fact. It's not wrong to pull up a user on a homework question.

Stating "sounds like homework" is merely a suggestion - rules do not come into that. You cannot have rules which forbid users from making a suggestion about another user's post, unless that suggestion is in itself a personal attack or contains some other "rule breaking".

"only common sense is required" is also in no way insulting or worthy of any kind of infraction.

e.g.

"Is this difficult?"
"no, only common sense is required"

Also take into account the OP of this thread. I am of the honest opinion that a reversal is in order. Let's just slow down and think before we set about creating another 'buntuforums - but let's also not return to the purely gratuitous nastiness of a few years back.

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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#19 Post by Hallvor »

donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 Asking about securing SSH with fail2ban is a question that could be answered fairly easily but may be complex for someone who is asking (the question) about it, especially regarding some of the other means of securing a server. Iptables can be daunting, fail2ban is a great option, sshguard is another option ... and so on. Depending on the users experience they might not even understand how to ask the question.
I mostly agree. However, giving blank statements to a beginner, without us knowing anything about their system, and without them getting a basic understanding of their own system, is a disservice to anyone running a server.
donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 It is the line in the sand. Looking over some of the older posts it seems most users here have given a RTFM answer at some point. After the administration change last year all users were suggested to read the updated/new rules which made it clear those past behaviours were no longer welcome here. These are not rules me and not for thee, these guidelines are for everyone, users, moderators, and administrators.
Those were the times. I actually showed interest in GNU/Linux the first time in 1998. Back then there was very little info online (that I could find), so I headed over to the #debian IRC channel, asked a question and immediately got two RTFM-replies, without anyone ever telling me what fm to r.

Having first hand experience with it, I can honestly say that it wasn't even remotely helpful. But please assume good faith on my part here, as I'm trying to understand the little nuances: There is a stickied thread in this very forum that pretty much says RTFM/do your own research before asking. Is this just an anachronistic relic, or is it still allowed to link to it? If Segfault had simply pasted that link in the thread, would that be OK?
donald wrote: 2022-10-02 22:42 There is a lot that occurs in the background but things can be missed with each staff member having different hours/time zones or time commitments, hitting the report button will definitely get the post noticed and the user made aware of the issue. If you or anyone has an issue with a mod/admin that you cannot work out send me a PM.
More than few years ago, there was a troll running rampant in this forum. I visited this forum daily even back then, but suddenly a mod that I never heard of popped out of the shadows and banned a long time respected member for getting into a quarrel with the troll. It caused several of the most experienced members to pack up and leave. Even back then, the mod complained that he had received no reports.

When you first came here, I was very pleased to have a Debian developer here, and I was hoping that we'd finally get someone who participated more actively. I think it suffices to say that a lot of stuff has happened here lately that never got reported and you obviously never saw. Arbitrariness is never popular, and if you want to make a change, please spend more time here, or find someone who will.
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Re: Love the spirit of this forum

#20 Post by donald »

cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-03 09:12
@donald

Would you consider reviewing and possibly reversing Segfault's infraction for that post? You have to take into account that the post was in no way malicious, it was "in the spirit of the forum", in fact. It's not wrong to pull up a user on a homework question.
Some of this comes from misunderstanding on both sides. On the system side, a warning is just a warning. It just lets the other moderators or admins know about what could be a troubling user, after some time the warning drops off the account. I've used them before, told the other admins about it, and when checking the user history again the 'flag' is not there. It's not a permanent record or anything.

No reversal is needed.

I'll view this from all of your eyes and the input I received in this thread, but you all have to do the same with regard to the posts that are made here by yourselves and fellows.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-03 09:12 Stating "sounds like homework" is merely a suggestion - rules do not come into that. You cannot have rules which forbid users from making a suggestion about another user's post, unless that suggestion is in itself a personal attack or contains some other "rule breaking".
"Sounds like homework" sounds like I'm giving you a snarky answer instead of ... just not responding to the thread. Not responding to that type of thread would have been the easiest.
The OP would have not gotten any answers and likely looked further into it on their own to came back to ask the question correctly.

It's also just as easy to pop into a thread and point a bad question to the How to ask your question thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=152765 than it is to not respond to the type of thread.
cynwulf wrote: 2022-10-03 09:12 Also take into account the OP of this thread. I am of the honest opinion that a reversal is in order. Let's just slow down and think before we set about creating another 'buntuforums - but let's also not return to the purely gratuitous nastiness of a few years back.
Thats up to everyone myself included.

If one can help the fellow member with a response help them, that help can be pointing them to how to ask the question a question right thread or ignoring the thread.
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