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Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

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KitchM
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Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#1 Post by KitchM »

There appears to be some confusion about the proper way for GUI users to upgrade to the latest OS version from their desktop environment. Some say to use Apt and some say to use Synaptic and some say they should not use the GUI but instead use the command prompt as root.

The press release says 11 was available on August 14th.

What surprises me is the Synaptic does not know that Bullseye is available to install. Must we do everything manually as if we didn't use GUI applications for everything else and instead follow the many details of https://www.debian.org/releases/bullsey ... ng.en.html?

What gives?

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#2 Post by sunrat »

KitchM wrote: 2021-09-14 00:00What surprises me is the Synaptic does not know that Bullseye is available to install.
Do you mean your Buster didn't automatically upgrade to Bullseye? Of course it won't unless you change your sources to point to Bullseye. Maybe you didn't read that upgrade guide you linked? Read this bit - https://www.debian.org/releases/bullsey ... de-process
And yes you can change your sources in Synaptic if you're scared of CLI.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#3 Post by KitchM »

Yes, I had thought that the process would be more automatic. The first thing we must know is that there is a choice (if I have this right):
1. Wait until end of life,
2. Or change the entries in /etc/apt/sources.list to replace buster with bullseye.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#4 Post by CwF »

KitchM wrote: 2021-11-14 18:59 2. Or change the entries in /etc/apt/sources.list to replace buster with bullseye.
If you instead use 'stable' as the designation instead of the release name then synaptic would have upgraded from buster to bullseye. I think this still works...

Aptitude in a root tty is faster, not better. Within a full desktop GUI there will be more restarts/iterations of the process.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#5 Post by KitchM »

What happens if sources.list always uses "stable" instead of any specific version?

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#6 Post by CwF »

KitchM wrote: 2021-11-15 00:34 What happens if sources.list always uses "stable" instead of any specific version?
CwF wrote: 2021-11-14 22:48synaptic would have upgraded from buster to bullseye.
One day, the status just changes!

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#7 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Cue "surprise upgrade"!
Not generally a good idea.

Do it the right way:
https://www.debian.org/releases/bullsey ... ng.en.html
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#8 Post by steve_v »

KitchM wrote: 2021-09-14 00:00There appears to be some confusion about the proper way for GUI users to upgrade to the latest OS version from their desktop environment.
There is no confusion. The correct way to upgrade to a new release is by following the upgrade instructions accompanying the release notes, from a terminal. Whether or not you are a "GUI user" is irrelevant.
KitchM wrote: 2021-09-14 00:00Must we do everything manually as if we didn't use GUI applications for everything else and instead follow the many details of https://www.debian.org/releases/bullsey ... ng.en.html?
If you want things to go smoothly, follow the official instructions. That's why somebody went to all the effort of writing them.

Those instructions are, however, both verbose and extremely conservative - they're aimed at people running mission-critical servers, so they provide every warning and cover every eventuality.
If you want to skip most of the steps on your non mission-critical desktop go right ahead, but don't whinge about it. Debian is far more than a GUI-centric desktop OS, and the documentation reflects that. This is not your grandma's facebook machine, nor is it Windows.

The bare minimum steps I would personally suggest for a dist-upgrade are:
Read the release notes.
Ensure you have a good, tested backup.
Bring your system up to date, if it isn't already.
Take note of, then remove any non-debian packages.
Change your sources.list entries to reference the new release.
Sync repos and do the dist-upgrade, with --dry-run. Inspect for borkage.
If you're happy with the proposed actions, do it for real.
Ask apt to (auto)remove any unneeded packages, carefully.
Update config files if needed, check for borkage.
Reinstall anything removed in step 4, ensuring they are compatible with the new release.

dilberts_left_nut wrote: 2021-11-15 07:19 Cue "surprise upgrade"!
Not generally a good idea.
Indeed. Why anyone would want an "automatic" dist-upgrade I don't know.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#9 Post by KitchM »

There was no mention of a so-called "surprise upgrade". That is never a good idea or suggested. However, any time a distribution has a new long-term upgrade, it should immediately be shown in the current version with a pop-up message. At that point the user would be given the option to follow the upgrade process in the same manner the installer handles a fresh install. This is a bit of a "Well Duh" moment.

Further, hopping thru a confusing list of discordant notes regarding some odd upgrade path and trying to figure out what applies and what does not apply will never be a good idea at all. Suggesting such may show a lack of insight into the real needs of the average user.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#10 Post by KitchM »

By the way, it therefore appears that option number 3 is actually the best:
3. Back up all data and write down all settings preferences. Then wipe drive and install Bullseye with all the app re-installs, just like in Windows.. Do this every time the long-term support runs out.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#11 Post by CwF »

KitchM wrote: 2021-11-30 22:26 Then wipe drive and install Bullseye with all the app re-installs, just like in Windows.. Do this every time the long-term support runs out.
Hogwash
I have many bullseye+'s, not one installed fresh, in fact as Jessie's, and one Stretch.

Just to note, I expect an upgrade into Bookworm to be the last in this group. Then maybe a fresh install.
steve_v wrote: 2021-11-15 09:30 Take note of, then remove any non-debian packages.
This is a key. I'd say, take it apart and put it back together with new parts.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#12 Post by canci »

KitchM wrote: 2021-11-30 22:19 any time a distribution has a new long-term upgrade, it should immediately be shown in the current version with a pop-up message. At that point the user would be given the option to follow the upgrade process in the same manner the installer handles a fresh install. This is a bit of a "Well Duh" moment.

Further, hopping thru a confusing list of discordant notes regarding some odd upgrade path and trying to figure out what applies and what does not apply will never be a good idea at all. Suggesting such may show a lack of insight into the real needs of the average user.
I disagree and I think most Debian users will disagree, too. The Debian way to upgrade is to drop to the console, disable Xorg/Wayland, change the sources.list to the new release, in some cases disable any pinned packages, backports or PPAs, preferably also remove those packages that don't come from oldstable first, so you don't get any surprises. Then you upgrade to the new stable release with apt update && apt dist-ugprade . As simple as that. If you want more automation and convenience, well that's what Linux Mint, Ubuntu or MX Linux are for.

Other Debian users aren't here to feel out the real needs of the strawman user you're presenting. Debian is like a set of tools. The carpenter or extensive carpentry course, or that private butler that does everything for you are not included in Debian. It's a bit more hands on, but it's more control and more DIY, but we like it that way.

And yes, the beauty of Linux is also that there's more ways to skin a cat, so upgrading via Synaptic or Gnome Software or whatever GUI is also possible. I'd never do it though.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#13 Post by steve_v »

KitchM wrote: 2021-11-30 22:26it therefore appears that option number 3 is actually the best:
3. Back up all data and write down all settings preferences. Then wipe drive and install Bullseye with all the app re-installs, just like in Windows.. Do this every time the long-term support runs out.
You do you I guess.
Personally I think that approach is a complete waste of time, as apt is entirely able to upgrade between releases if you follow some basic instructions. I have installations that date back to Lenny, however many dist-upgrades that is.
KitchM wrote: 2021-11-30 22:19any time a distribution has a new long-term upgrade, it should immediately be shown in the current version with a pop-up message.
A popup for your particular graphical desktop of choice I presume?
What about people who have no GUI, should we annoy them with a wall message too? And those using debian on headless machines? Going to need an announcement via email or something...

Or, we could just say "subscribe to the announce mailing list, and read the notes when you are ready to upgrade"... Like it's been done for decades. No extra software required, no annoying popups or nag screens, just competent users making their own informed upgrade decisions.
Yes, shocking isn't it, users making decisions, of all the crazy ideas. Next we'll be expecting them to have brains, and to remember to turn them on from time to time.
KitchM wrote: 2021-11-30 22:19hopping thru a confusing list of discordant notes regarding some odd upgrade path and trying to figure out what applies and what does not apply will never be a good idea at all. Suggesting such may show a lack of insight into the real needs of the average user.
Assuming that "the average user" is incapable of navigating the release notes or following a step-by-step upgrade procedure may show a lack of insight into the real Debian userbase.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#14 Post by ticojohn »

Some people aren't willing to read and understand the well written Debian documentation on how to upgrade their system. Yes, the docs are rather lengthy and for non-techies somewhat confusing. But with a little perseverance and a desire to learn even I was able to figure it out. I admit that my first upgrade, I think from Sarge, was a bit mystifying but I got through it. And every upgrade since has gone more smoothly (better instructions and package management). But in my opinion here's the REAL BOTTOM LINE; many people seem to be coming to the forum to complain and talk trash about Debian. They don't come looking for solutions to specific problems, they come to lay out a list of grievances. And most times those grievances are fueled by their biases. But it seems to be the way of the world these days. And we can't go back because entropy appears to be unidirectional. :mrgreen:
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#15 Post by canci »

OP didn't talk trash about Debian, they just voiced an opinion.
And everyone is fueled by biases. What OP wants is perfectly legitimate and is easy bto get on other distros or even implement in 5min of scripting or setup. We don't have to get nasty about that.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#16 Post by KitchM »

Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Please allow me to make a few further points for consideration.
1. The idea that the documentation is well-written is definitely in the eye of the reader. I do not agree. As a long-time "techie", I find the language poor and unnecessarily confusing.
2. A distro does not spread its message well when it is driven by iconoclastic viewpoints. The idea of Linux is to spread the word far and wide and to be welcoming and inclusive. Anything that can further that goal is to be pursued and commended.
3. Removing everything and starting over is often much faster than piddling around with all the many exceptions and gotchas in the published upgrade process.
4. Please consider the fine install routine that is offered by Debian. It is quite good. It has an easy-to-follow graphical procedure that everyone can use, rather than just a few who love the command line. Further, why did Debian create it if they wanted everyone to use the command line? Ignoring a proper automated process is what is true hogwash.
5. There are any of a million ways to notify all users of an available upgrade, as well as to have a link to select when desiring to commence with the process. After all the other hard and detailed work that is done with various parts of the distro, this should be trivial.

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#17 Post by canci »

1. You could participate in the documentation writing. Maybe write the author?

2. The assumption here is that Debian users/devs want a certain kind of user, namely the user that expects an OS to work like an appliance. And that just isn't the case. The ideal Debian user is more involved in setting up their OS.

3. Maybe in your case. In my case, apt dust-upgrade is quicker because I take great care of not using 3rd party software as much as possible and I buy hardware that just works with Debian.

4. Quite the fallacy to present automation as this sort of either or proposition. It seems more likely that Debian just isn't for certain users that expect an all-or-nothing approach. But that's OK.

5. But most of Debian's users don't want or need that. So what would be the point? Still, you could propose this to the GNOME desktop team.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#18 Post by KitchM »

Has there been a poll? And have the results been compared to the distro's main creator's desires?

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#19 Post by Linuxembourg »

steve_v wrote: 2021-11-15 09:30 The bare minimum steps I would personally suggest for a dist-upgrade are:
Read the release notes.
Ensure you have a good, tested backup.
Bring your system up to date, if it isn't already.
Take note of, then remove any non-debian packages.
Change your sources.list entries to reference the new release.
Sync repos and do the dist-upgrade, with --dry-run. Inspect for borkage.
If you're happy with the proposed actions, do it for real.
Ask apt to (auto)remove any unneeded packages, carefully.
Update config files if needed, check for borkage.
Reinstall anything removed in step 4, ensuring they are compatible with the new release.
:lol: Oh well, looks I failed to even do most of the bare minimum! For the average user inspecting for "borkage" or being "happy with proposed changes" is like my mum "looking" at a proposed car engine upgrade and being "happy" with how it looks. It's just someone looking at a monitor/metal oarts and nodding their head.

What are the implications of not removing (and reinstalling) non-debian packages? I suppose it will (possibly) affect the packages rather than the system?

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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line

#20 Post by canci »

KitchM, no, that's just based on what I've seen since using Debian (Ive been at it since Sarge). You're welcome to make one or what would make more sense, propose this to Debian's GNOME desktop team. They could implement it.
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