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Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
1. Documentation is somewhat esoteric in every area of technology. The best examples of the issue are the excellent documentation that exist in many projects that is no longer applicable...
2. Debian is not a competitor to Windows. It is a base intended for expert assembly, and derivatives.
3. It is much faster to fix than reinstall. This is a predictable boundary of expertise, most will reinstall.
4. Technically 'install' is an old fashion non-necessity. With sufficient tools and knowledge you can 'flash' an OS onto a system in the same way one would do a bios, firmware, a phone...I stopped doing 'installs' years ago. The idea the OS is 'locked' to the hardware is a windows thing, and an arch faux feature...
5. If any of my computers pops up a message to update, something needs fixed, not updated.
KitchM, your windows ways bias is obvious, understandable, and narrow. Debian is not, and should not, be for the average typical kinda self appointed technical user. Try an Ubuntu. Debian is a Heathkit. The fact that Debian is not complete or intended to be despite having many 'task' options, seems to escape you.
2. Debian is not a competitor to Windows. It is a base intended for expert assembly, and derivatives.
3. It is much faster to fix than reinstall. This is a predictable boundary of expertise, most will reinstall.
4. Technically 'install' is an old fashion non-necessity. With sufficient tools and knowledge you can 'flash' an OS onto a system in the same way one would do a bios, firmware, a phone...I stopped doing 'installs' years ago. The idea the OS is 'locked' to the hardware is a windows thing, and an arch faux feature...
5. If any of my computers pops up a message to update, something needs fixed, not updated.
KitchM, your windows ways bias is obvious, understandable, and narrow. Debian is not, and should not, be for the average typical kinda self appointed technical user. Try an Ubuntu. Debian is a Heathkit. The fact that Debian is not complete or intended to be despite having many 'task' options, seems to escape you.
Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Don't use Gnome. Hate everything microsoft. And would never use Ubuntu or its derivatives again.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Says who? As I recall it, the idea of Linux was to write an i386 kernel modelled after minix, because why the hell not.
As for that other core software ecosystem that makes Debian a viable OS, I'm pretty certain the idea behind the GNU project is to promote and enable software freedom. Freedom may well be compatible with "welcoming and inclusive", but IMO the latter is really a new political-correctness parasite tacked onto a much older and more interesting message.
Your acceptance of risk and mine probably just differ.
If you want to skip the instructions and run without backups, that's cool. I wouldn't, but then I maintain systems where downtime is a relatively Big Deal and getting a physical console is a PITA.
TBF though, apt is pretty reliable. Most of the time you can totally get away with just changing target release and doing the upgrade.
Have you any hard data to support this assumption that the average Debian user is both mostly clueless, and unwilling to learn even with free access to the documentation?Linuxembourg wrote: ↑2021-12-01 17:27For the average user inspecting for "borkage" or being "happy with proposed changes" is like my mum "looking" at a proposed car engine upgrade and being "happy" with how it looks.
I mean, "average person" I'd get, but that's why all those Debian and Ubuntu derivatives exist, is it not?
Non-debian packages or repos might block the upgrade (or part thereof, resulting in a frankendebian), and/or back apt into an impossible (or highly undesirable) situation WRT library versions. IME this is often confusing and/or annoying to sort out, so it's easier and less error-prone to just remove and re-install.Linuxembourg wrote: ↑2021-12-01 17:27What are the implications of not removing (and reinstalling) non-debian packages?
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Half the people in the world are below average intelligence, except for that one who is exactly average.steve_v wrote: ↑2021-12-02 05:52 Have you any hard data to support this assumption that the average Debian user is both mostly clueless, and unwilling to learn even with free access to the documentation?
I mean, "average person" I'd get, but that's why all those Debian and Ubuntu derivatives exist, is it not?
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!
- canci
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
I'm a bit uneasy with this conclusion that Debian somehow wasn't welcoming.
I think the entire community was very welcoming to me. They said: Here's a set of tools. I asked questions like: How do I do x or y? People told me that in Debian, I should read the documentation and not ask about every step. Also, they told me that I can expect a little bit of automation when I do apt get install gnome or kde-full, but that this still isn't as hand-holdy as Ubuntu. However, I've found that putting in some effort and styling my OS to my liking paid off and I was able to have a reliable and robust OS, that isn't commercial, that doesn't change the rug out under my feet forcing me to land with my face on the hard ground like corporate interests tend to do with Windows, Mac or even Ubuntu to a large extent. All of this empowered me immensely. It motivated me to learn vim, LaTeX, to set up a Samba server... But I also know others who installed Debian, set up a few things and never went beyond that. They're happily using Gnome or some other desktop. They get a lot of hand-holding, but they still manage to update it themselves when they get a reminder via the mailing list or an RSS feed that Debian just changed releases.
BTW, I'm really sure that you could just build a script that checks the current Debian stable codename somewhere on Debian's website, and once it changes from Bullseye to something else, give a pop-up that says: "New Debian release. You can upgrade now." Maybe also a link to a nice upgrade tutorial that also exists in the official documentation. You could do that with bash, curl and notify-send, all tools that exist in the repos. You could also go a step further and include that in Debian after becoming a maintainer. Or just ask one of the many desktop teams to include it into their tools.
I think the entire community was very welcoming to me. They said: Here's a set of tools. I asked questions like: How do I do x or y? People told me that in Debian, I should read the documentation and not ask about every step. Also, they told me that I can expect a little bit of automation when I do apt get install gnome or kde-full, but that this still isn't as hand-holdy as Ubuntu. However, I've found that putting in some effort and styling my OS to my liking paid off and I was able to have a reliable and robust OS, that isn't commercial, that doesn't change the rug out under my feet forcing me to land with my face on the hard ground like corporate interests tend to do with Windows, Mac or even Ubuntu to a large extent. All of this empowered me immensely. It motivated me to learn vim, LaTeX, to set up a Samba server... But I also know others who installed Debian, set up a few things and never went beyond that. They're happily using Gnome or some other desktop. They get a lot of hand-holding, but they still manage to update it themselves when they get a reminder via the mailing list or an RSS feed that Debian just changed releases.
BTW, I'm really sure that you could just build a script that checks the current Debian stable codename somewhere on Debian's website, and once it changes from Bullseye to something else, give a pop-up that says: "New Debian release. You can upgrade now." Maybe also a link to a nice upgrade tutorial that also exists in the official documentation. You could do that with bash, curl and notify-send, all tools that exist in the repos. You could also go a step further and include that in Debian after becoming a maintainer. Or just ask one of the many desktop teams to include it into their tools.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Merci for the response and it makes sense. I probably got away with it as I maybe only had one non-Debian app installed. On the above bit I was just trying to be amusing really but you have a point.steve_v wrote: ↑2021-12-02 05:52Have you any hard data to support this assumption that the average Debian user is both mostly clueless, and unwilling to learn even with free access to the documentation?Linuxembourg wrote: ↑2021-12-01 17:27For the average user inspecting for "borkage" or being "happy with proposed changes" is like my mum "looking" at a proposed car engine upgrade and being "happy" with how it looks.
I mean, "average person" I'd get, but that's why all those Debian and Ubuntu derivatives exist, is it not?
From my pov it seems all those derivatives exist for egotistical reasons, or because Linux developers are the opposite of politicians. I mean if I want to add the functionality in Debian to right-click an appimage and 'integrate' is it really worth (yet another) new distro? Or to have a bash function/alias called DebianSafeFullUpgrade that removes all non debian apps and reinstalls them after, is that worthy?
Very hard to know what the average person is tbf, but they probably haven't installed an OS. For anyone that has experience of installing an OS like myself, the difference between installing Debian and Ubuntu is pretty minimal really. Stuff like "don't enter a root password if you want your user to have sudo rights" when installing Debian is like a bizarre little thing you just need to know. Other than little things like that, it isn't really that "difficult". In fact, Debian has been easier as I had to go through hassle of removing snaps/snapdaemon/etc after installing Lubuntu.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Welcome to Idiocracy! The race to the bottom won long ago...computer technology simply sped up the downward momentum, epigenetics and the law of resonance quickly took care of the rest, but wasn't that (dumb-ing down) the whole point of technology? Now we're complaining it worked. Huh!
Last edited by argentwolf on 2021-12-02 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
I think this is a very nice idea. Is it really the case that a beginner with rudimentary (and rather obvious) scripts can contribute to Debian though? I find it hard to believe the an actual maintainer, who could code a better script off the top of their head, hasn't thought about and rejected the idea of adding such scripts.canci wrote: ↑2021-12-02 08:03 BTW, I'm really sure that you could just build a script that checks the current Debian stable codename somewhere on Debian's website, and once it changes from Bullseye to something else, give a pop-up that says: "New Debian release. You can upgrade now." Maybe also a link to a nice upgrade tutorial that also exists in the official documentation. You could do that with bash, curl and notify-send, all tools that exist in the repos. You could also go a step further and include that in Debian after becoming a maintainer. Or just ask one of the many desktop teams to include it into their tools.
Of course they've maybe just got much better things to do. But I'd feel a bit like I was trying to suggest funny ideas to Larry David.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
No one said that a beginner has to programme that, but why do you think a beginner couldn't write that on a wishlist or write the developers of a distro?
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Huh! The irony is thick and now the whining never-ending, what the hell is this world coming to? I've managed over the past 40+ years, just from following tech news to know every OS's end-of-life and their updates, patches, etc., along with every application I've ever touched and their latest releases. And now we have a 'few' who want technology support turned into a daycare center for challenged readers because knowing about their systems doesn't fit their social agenda? Amazing! Some just know enough to come to a forum to complain, but I guess it never crossed their calendar to periodically check their distribution's site or subscribe to a newsletter to stay informed. D'oh! I'm going to have to agree with those who argue humanity has lost 10+ points of IQ over the last 20+ years...and that's the professed smart ones. drops mic
Vanguard Debian, because nothing's worse than doing nothing, whimsically!
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
It's hard to believe given how much you are struggling to cope with the notion of automatic upgrades.
Were you banging on about the death of humanity back when people started using GUIs?
No one said that a beginner shouldn't program it. My point was a beginner like me could program it. I can code well enough for an average person but I am a beginner in the sense I've used Linux for about 9 months (and Debian for about one). But I think even writing to a developer with an idea seems a bit arrogant when it's so obvious and they probably haven't done it for some good reason.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
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Vanguard Debian, because nothing's worse than doing nothing, whimsically!
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
32-bit | 2 Duo T5270 @ 1.40GHz x 2 CPU | 3.9GiB RAM | NV86 117MiB GPU | 465.76GiB SSD
64-bit | i7-4790 @ 3.60GHz x 8 CPU | 15.6GiB RAM | NVD9 1.9GiB GPU | 931.51GiB SSD
- canci
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
I'm really puzzled by all your replies. There are several ways to contact either the upstream developers of any desktop environment or the Debian maintainers and suggest a script like that. Why would asking a question like that be arrogant? Unless someone can't deal with feedback, then I guess it may come off as arrogant to that person.Linuxembourg wrote: ↑2021-12-02 18:21But I think even writing to a developer with an idea seems a bit arrogant when it's so obvious and they probably haven't done it for some good reason.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Please desist with personal slurs and stick to the subject.argentwolf wrote: ↑2021-12-02 16:53 Huh! The irony is thick and now the whining never-ending, what the hell is this world coming to? I've managed over the past 40+ years, just from following tech news to know every OS's end-of-life and their updates, patches, etc., along with every application I've ever touched and their latest releases. And now we have a 'few' who want technology support turned into a daycare center for challenged readers because knowing about their systems doesn't fit their social agenda? Amazing! Some just know enough to come to a forum to complain, but I guess it never crossed their calendar to periodically check their distribution's site or subscribe to a newsletter to stay informed. D'oh! I'm going to have to agree with those who argue humanity has lost 10+ points of IQ over the last 20+ years...and that's the professed smart ones. drops mic
I kind of agree with what you are saying but not with the way you say it.
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
Maybe I am just being too humble, and I suppose arrogant is maybe a bit strong.canci wrote: ↑2021-12-02 22:04 I'm really puzzled by all your replies. There are several ways to contact either the upstream developers of any desktop environment or the Debian maintainers and suggest a script like that. Why would asking a question like that be arrogant? Unless someone can't deal with feedback, then I guess it may come off as arrogant to that person.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
I'm not sure if free software should be about being humble and worshipping individuals. It should be about collaboration. For me this entails that everyone can contribute somehow. One person codes, the other files bugs, has a wishlist of features or defends free licenses in court, or makes artwork, etc. Contributing feedback also doesn't mean that you're disrespectful or rude to someone who created the software. But I'm coming to free software from a humanist and communist perspective. There are of course many ways to organise free software and I can imagine that to a conservative person, negative feedback can come across as disrespect, especially if one's expertise is never challenged.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
@canci - how can I disable your extremely annoying gif? I want to read your comments but the gif is so distracting and giving me a headache. Sorry.
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- Linuxembourg
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
If you are using Ublock Origin as you should be, you just need to right-click on the picture and select block element and then select the imgur link under network filters and click create.anticapitalista wrote: ↑2021-12-03 12:02 @canci - how can I disable your extremely annoying gif? I want to read your comments but the gif is so distracting and giving me a headache. Sorry.
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Re: Upgrade Buster 10 to Bullseye 11 - The Bottom Line
I agree it's rather distracting but its message is good. Please replace it with a text message. @cancianticapitalista wrote: ↑2021-12-03 12:02 @canci - how can I disable your extremely annoying gif? I want to read your comments but the gif is so distracting and giving me a headache. Sorry.
Thanks
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ” Remember to BACKUP!