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( closed )Trying to install debian without all bloatware

Ask for help with issues regarding the Installations of the Debian O/S.
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Marie SWE
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#21 Post by Marie SWE »

CwF wrote: 2022-07-02 04:35
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-02 04:19 I like clean installs..
So do I. I was exited with cdimage customizing tight tailored installs since NT. Nlite was cake.
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-02 04:19 even if Linux is better then windows of cleaning out the uninstalled things
It's not.
A package list from an ideal install fashioned in the convenience of a vm would serve you well.
do you mean that i can make a debian install iso of a VM install?... or do you mean just to make a clone?
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
You only have one life, so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can.

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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#22 Post by Marie SWE »

craigevil wrote: 2022-07-02 13:59 Sounds like what you want is fai.
FAI is a non-interactive system to install, customize and manage
Linux systems and software configurations on computers as well as
virtual machines and chroot environments, from small networks to
large infrastructures and clusters.
https://fai-project.org
is this script based only or GUI based to edit the files?
I took a light look at it and i didn't get a grip of it right away.. so i need to read thru the documentation. :D
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
You only have one life, so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can.

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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#23 Post by CwF »

Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-03 22:06 do you mean that i can make a debian install iso of a VM install?... or do you mean just to make a clone?
Either, both
. Brake apart the task. The details on any final method have common ingredients that are figured out in similar ways. At least once you set up the desktop like you want. Separable is the base system you want. Some real machine, some VM. Any way you slice it the config you want comes before deciding how to package it.

Personally I don't care much for complete installs formulated as an ISO. I think it's more productive to know the formula of how it goes together. Then a fresh net install is current and not a snapshot of the recent past.

Developing what you want is easier in a VM. Experiments, destructive or not, trivial. Not much needs to be done on bare metal, once you know the details they can be incorporated in the VM just the same. The VM can do moved to real machines, no issue. I typical setup at least 2 users, one for use in the VM and one for real hardware.

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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#24 Post by Marie SWE »

CwF wrote: 2022-07-04 00:06
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-03 22:06 do you mean that i can make a debian install iso of a VM install?... or do you mean just to make a clone?
Either, both
. Brake apart the task. The details on any final method have common ingredients that are figured out in similar ways. At least once you set up the desktop like you want. Separable is the base system you want. Some real machine, some VM. Any way you slice it the config you want comes before deciding how to package it.

Personally I don't care much for complete installs formulated as an ISO. I think it's more productive to know the formula of how it goes together. Then a fresh net install is current and not a snapshot of the recent past.

Developing what you want is easier in a VM. Experiments, destructive or not, trivial. Not much needs to be done on bare metal, once you know the details they can be incorporated in the VM just the same. The VM can do moved to real machines, no issue. I typical setup at least 2 users, one for use in the VM and one for real hardware.
I know how to clone, but I don't know how to make a installer of a installed system.
It has to contain Gparted or other partitioning software, timezone, language, keyboard setup, then the making of a user with password and so on.
I like fedora 29 netinstaller as you have the option to choose what programs to install. I had hope the Debian net installer was the same, but the netinstaller is the same results as the full ISO.. so the full iso is faster and smarter install.. the only difference I saw was it was possible to choose DE instead of a full ISO with DE.

I don't use VM's I prefer bare metal testings. so I have one laptop and one desktop for it.. I have only used then two times to test Linux things on.. I mostly use them for workrelated testings(windows environments 7 up to 11) a few times a year
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#25 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-03 21:49Do you know where in the documentation they mention what files to edit and what folders to put the new deb packages in?
Read the "For the Impatient" bit to which I linked. It won't take long.

There isn't a Swedish translation but there are other options if you are polyglot: https://live-team.pages.debian.net/live-manual/
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-03 21:49MX Linux re-master tool? what is that?
https://mxlinux.org/wiki/help-files/help-mx-remaster/
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#26 Post by panpan »


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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#27 Post by Marie SWE »

Hi again. 8)
We have a nice summer so far and my vacation days are ticking away a little bit to fast for my taste. :lol:

Today I got a little time over to take a fast look on this DE content.
It seems it is Debian that is responsible for apps choices in Xfce desktop install, both in the full and net-installer.. When I looked at xfce.org I didn't find any external programs follow the DE.

Duo any of you know if it's possible to get in contact with the Debian ISO creators developers, to ask where in the ISO installer they have hidden the commands to install mediaplayers, office and other things, so it is possible to stop them from being installed?
.

If it had been an open script then it had been easy to #out the packages and it had also been easy to add new packages in the same script for the net install.
but I have not found such script when I looked thru the iso content and used file content search for office or the mediaplayers Parole and Leíbet...
if it is an closed source installer, then it is harder to get round the programs. :(

I can't be the first in Debian history that want a clean install without Libre office, two dictionary's two media players, image viewer, scanner program. :mrgreen:
I did like Fedora29 net-installer there it was possible to choose what apps/programs to install or not in the install process.. I wish Debian would adopt that concept on the net-installer and also an OEM install option. :D

As my deadline soon is here I have to solve it by first net-install, then uninstall and install again to get my choice of programs and then on each computer, this time.. but I do want to learn how to change the installer as it is has to be possible as they can create it.. Debian do stand for it's open source
So I need to set up my own Debian local mirror this time to use the net-installer on all five.. Gbit is faster then Mbit. :mrgreen:

'

:mrgreen: Thanks for the help and your tip so far and I do hope some of you know the secret behind the Debian net-installer program and want to share its secret, I am happy to hear about it if you know. :mrgreen:

I wish you all a great week. 8)
Regards Marie
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#28 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

Don't install the 'full desktop' metapackage - just install the bits you want.
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#29 Post by Marie SWE »

dilberts_left_nut wrote: 2022-07-18 07:09 Don't install the 'full desktop' metapackage - just install the bits you want.
I did try to just install the base first and then install xfce4 --no-install-recommends
The result was I had to manually install more packages then uninstall.

In windows, I just edit the installer.wim and add my own programs to install. it takes 15 to 20minutes the installs 30-45Minutes
Learned the installer editor 7years ago.. 30minutes.

In Linux you have to First use the Net-installer as the main ISO is not editable.
Then make a override file and hand write that one (not fun with dyslexia and no debian packet spellchecker)
Then when you have a slow internet speed and five computers, you need to download the Debian mirror, set up a own local mirror for the net install and do the installations.
Then start the installs.
then a script to un-install all unwanted packages.
Time.. 2days. research 20days

I do so hope Debian will go over to 10year LTS, so I don't need this to often. :lol: or that windows makes pro as LTS-release again
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#30 Post by Hallvor »

Using 20 days to research and two days to install Debian on five computers to save a few megabytes... Wow. That's days of your life you won't get back. I hope it was worth it.

Well, once installed, it can be dist-upgraded again and again - with or without LTS.
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#31 Post by CwF »

I used to make single run unattended installs for Windows. Took apart exe and msi installllers, maybe 10 different types, created integrated fully configured silent installers with a few methods, and integrated service packs and hardware drivers....

With Debian there is no comparable way to do all that, primarily, because that's not how you do it. Windows ways are hard to unlearn.

On the flip side of this same coin, Linux's have a similar number of ways to record the formula from an existing install. Windows doesn't have that, so maybe the way doesn't occur to people...

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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#32 Post by Marie SWE »

Hallvor wrote: 2022-07-28 21:51 Using 20 days to research and two days to install Debian on five computers to save a few megabytes... Wow. That's days of your life you won't get back. I hope it was worth it.

Well, once installed, it can be dist-upgraded again and again - with or without LTS.
If there had been a way to just edit the Linux install ISO it had probably bin done in a few hours.. :wink:
Yes i know, and i'm pissed at Linux right now.. but this is Linux in a nutshell.. :roll:
Everything is more complicated than it's needs to be.. It was the same when i learned how to set up a win-linux network with networkdrives.. it took weeks to learn that.. in windows i learned it within an hour a little more than 20years ago.
I do longs for the next generation of Linux developer.. those born after 2010 that may bring in linux in the 21st century.. GUI tools is sooo much better.
I am going to learn how the developers build their ISOs and where in there installer they have the hidden package list of including software, so it becomes possible to edit the ISO in the future.

No it not about save a we MegaBytes it is about having a clean system that is customized for you only and your hardware.. a system with less unnecessary software and function is a safer system.

really? a dist upgrade/rollup isn't that going to bring in that I'm trying to keep out?
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#33 Post by Marie SWE »

CwF wrote: 2022-07-28 22:30 I used to make single run unattended installs for Windows. Took apart exe and msi installllers, maybe 10 different types, created integrated fully configured silent installers with a few methods, and integrated service packs and hardware drivers....

With Debian there is no comparable way to do all that, primarily, because that's not how you do it. Windows ways are hard to unlearn.

On the flip side of this same coin, Linux's have a similar number of ways to record the formula from an existing install. Windows doesn't have that, so maybe the way doesn't occur to people...
I'm talking about the install ISO to edit that one... as i do with win7, win8 and win10 and win11 ISO.. I remove packages/programs from the "install.wim" file. and I add and remove register posts so its done on the install.. then add new programs to the installer so it becomes a OEM installer.

This is what i want to do on Linux ISO installer..
But i have not figured out how the developers build the iso installer and where in the install program they have hidden the list of programs to default install.
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#34 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

You're still doing it wrong. Leave that poor installer alone.
How many installs do you do anyway?

From a system set up as you like, do

Code: Select all

dpkg --get-selections > myfabulouspackagelist
Edit list as required.
Then in your fresh minimal install, do

Code: Select all

dpkg --set-selections < myfabulouspackagelist
apt-get dselect-upgrade
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#35 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-29 01:47 how the developers build the iso installer and where in the install program they have hidden the list of programs to default install.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=152159
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#36 Post by cynwulf »

Marie SWE wrote: 2022-06-30 20:07So I have 5 computers to install next week and I trying to install then without all unnecessary things as example media player, office, games and so on and so on.
Network install is the same as full ISO install.. I still get the unwanted things..

So how can I make an install without having to spend more time uninstall a lot of things after every install.
Is it possible to edit the install.iso to opt out of unwanted software/packages?
I know how to do it in windows install.wim, so the question is how do I do it in Debian? (Debian stable non-free Xfce)
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-29 01:47I'm talking about the install ISO to edit that one... as i do with win7, win8 and win10 and win11 ISO.. [etc]

This is what i want to do on Linux ISO installer..
But i have not figured out[etc]
This is a common fallacy:

1) You have a problem - you have a vague idea of the solution, but no practical knowledge of how to implement it ("this is how it works in Windows", is a useless tangent here).

2) You want others to guide you through implementing your chosen proposed solution.

Your proposed solution - which you have no idea how to implement - is over engineered and unnecessary for what you want to achieve. If you were to release your own customised distribution of Debian, then that would be worth considering - for what you want to do, it's a huge waste of effort.


What you actually need to do is very simple:

1) Install and configure one working system, exclude/remove packages you deem unnecessary, install those you require. Get everything configured to your liking.

2) Then the system is completely finalised - clone it using a disk imaging software to create an image (Clonezilla is free).

3) Deploy the cloned disk image to the other four machines.

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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#37 Post by Hallvor »

Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-29 01:40 If there had been a way to just edit the Linux install ISO it had probably bin done in a few hours.. :wink:
Yes i know, and i'm pissed at Linux right now.. but this is Linux in a nutshell.. :roll:
Come on, now. Were you born knowledgeable of Windows, or did you have to spend time learning it, at some point? It's a false comparison when you compare used time between something you are good at, and something you are a beginner at. (I would spend a lot more time accomplishing basic tasks in Windows.)
Everything is more complicated than it's needs to be.. It was the same when i learned how to set up a win-linux network with networkdrives.. it took weeks to learn that.. in windows i learned it within an hour a little more than 20years ago.
Do you think it's complicated to set up network drives? In Dolphin it's point and click. I already told you to use KDE if you like GUIs, but you chose XFCE and complaining. Why complain to others about the choice you made?
I do longs for the next generation of Linux developer.. those born after 2010 that may bring in linux in the 21st century..
You crack me up :lol:
No it not about save a we MegaBytes it is about having a clean system that is customized for you only and your hardware.. a system with less unnecessary software and function is a safer system.
Frankly, I'd just install the XFCE metapackage (KDE minimal, preferably) and remove whatever I didn't want from the metapackage. Time: 5 minutes after install in XFCE. 0 minutes in KDE. Removing desktop applications you never use (with no services attached to them) will probably not make your system any safer.
really? a dist upgrade/rollup isn't that going to bring in that I'm trying to keep out?
Oh no, the evil developers are trying to make your system less safe. :wink:
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#38 Post by Marie SWE »

dilberts_left_nut wrote: 2022-07-29 03:29 You're still doing it wrong. Leave that poor installer alone.
How many installs do you do anyway?

From a system set up as you like, do

Code: Select all

dpkg --get-selections > myfabulouspackagelist
Edit list as required.
Then in your fresh minimal install, do

Code: Select all

dpkg --set-selections < myfabulouspackagelist
apt-get dselect-upgrade
it is 3 desktops and 2 laptops as it is now.
When I switch out a desktop or laptop, then it is a new install.
I have different setups on my desktops VS laptops.. as most people has.
I did considering using package lists. I have to do two sets.
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#39 Post by Marie SWE »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote: 2022-07-29 06:59
Marie SWE wrote: 2022-07-29 01:47 how the developers build the iso installer and where in the install program they have hidden the list of programs to default install.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=152159
I will take a look, the salsa.debian.org didn't work on this computer, so i need to take a look at them on another.
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Re: Trying to install debian without all bloatware

#40 Post by Marie SWE »

cynwulf wrote: 2022-07-29 08:33
This is a common fallacy:

1) You have a problem - you have a vague idea of the solution, but no practical knowledge of how to implement it ("this is how it works in Windows", is a useless tangent here).

2) You want others to guide you through implementing your chosen proposed solution.

Your proposed solution - which you have no idea how to implement - is over engineered and unnecessary for what you want to achieve. If you were to release your own customised distribution of Debian, then that would be worth considering - for what you want to do, it's a huge waste of effort
1) I know it doesn't works the same in Linux, I learn that the first year with linux in 2018. :D and it took until 2020 until I stopped thinking in windows terms and windows solutions. I do still think it is possible to Linux to a work platform and not only a hobby/home user environment.. I do believe in Linux and I'm not ready to give up that yet.
I do am used to solve things within a day in windows environments and this get's me frustrated when it takes 20times longer to solve in Linux. and I know I may have a little to high expectations on Linux.

2) no I don't want others to hold my hand all the way.. just to point where I should look.. If it is a document on 100pages, then a hint where in the document the info is, as I am slow reading english compare to swedish.. I only learned to read and write english 4years ago.
I solve my own problems without asking most of the times.. and i had a bit short of time this time, that's why i started the tread, so it wouldn't take 2months


cynwulf wrote: 2022-07-29 08:33 What you actually need to do is very simple:

1) Install and configure one working system, exclude/remove packages you deem unnecessary, install those you require. Get everything configured to your liking.

2) Then the system is completely finalised - clone it using a disk imaging software to create an image (Clonezilla is free).

3) Deploy the cloned disk image to the other four machines.
two setups as laptops and desktops has different setups/packages.. battery savings, screen setups, fstab with only one disk in laptops and several in desktops. and some
Then I need to learn how to change identity's of the computers, I have never done that in linux... yet
So two packagelists.txt to install sounds as a bit easier.
Why make things complicated in life, if you can make it easier for yourself... Do it. ;o)
You only have one life, so make the most of it and enjoy it while you can.

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